Why are the rents so high when wages don't support it? (Portland: rentals, house)

[bler144]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

But I'll hold my nose and allow him to be used as an example of self made billionaire, but I challenge you to give me a more recent example of that kind of upward mobility.

Well, there's always LeBron, but the flaw in your argument isn't your description of the pattern, but the invitation to use anecdotes to refute it

As for the original question, I've mostly stayed out of this question because, while there are some facts/data to bring to the table, it's not completely known and thus speculative. Almost everything everybody has said is based on some actual truth, even if they're arguing completely different views.

For example, supply/demand do matter, but even that's not a simple matter. As just one example, the last decade arguably saw under-production of affordable units, and that trend largely continues. Why? Because from 2003-2007 the money was in SFH. 2008-2010 it was nearly impossible to get financing for new development. And since 2011 most of the new construction focus seems to be on mid- to high-end units like the south waterfront.

You also have the trend of large corporations consolidating RE ownership and bank-owned properties sometimes sitting vacant (thus why the OP can note the squatters can find a place illegally - though relatively there are also fewer squatters than renters, so their supply/demand curve looks a bit different). In a different market these larger corporations may have invested in developing here and creating new units. In this market they can buy sizable market share and then squeeze prices as far as demand will bear.

As someone else noted, the old-time standards of renting at 1:4 net income are out the window - I've seen a few postings that stipulated they would rent at 1:2 gross income. In short, these companies are willing to distort the traditional demand curve by increasing their risk in exchange for short-term cash flow.

Likewise, anecdotally, I see more and more non-traditional arrangements - extended family living together, families taking on additional renters, etc. The high prices force people to adapt, but once they do so the adaption supports the higher prices in the market. Those who don't (or can't) adapt, will feel the full price pinch.

[bler144]

Originally Posted by EnricoV

If it's not a necessity, it's a luxury. And yes, a car is also a luxury.

In a purely theoretical world that's certainly true. In the real world, it's not so simple.

Agree, for the sake of argument, that you need income to pay for the actual necessities (food/housing)? Income by and large requires having a job.

Having a job requires having a phone (plus voice mail or answering machine if you use a land line) to receive the call to interview (not to mention those who actually work on-call). And maintaining a means to reliably arrive at work (not even to mention attend to things like going to doctor's appts, picking up kids from school when they're sick, etc.). These may seem like luxuries until you don't have them. If you don't have them, you may not keep your job. If you don't keep your job, you can't pay for actual necessities.

If it were math we might define it as the 'transitive property of necessity.' Now, do you need an iPhone 5s or a BMW? No, but most people need something that is functional.

[Deezus]

Well, everything beyond food, water, and oxygen is a luxury on some level... Clothes are required by society or due to the weather--as is shelter, but not always neccesities for basic survival.

But most of us don't live on a unpopulated jungle island with an ample supply of food and water, so we're stuck determining what is of value to get by in a modern urban society.

A car might be considered a luxury if you live in a city with public transit or can walk to work. If you're living out in rural areas however you might argue you "need" a car or truck to get anywhere for work or to purchase food(or if you work in an occupation that you need a truck to transport your equipment or haul things). One man's luxury might be another's neccesary tool.

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

Actually they DO! In fact 99.99% of people die in the same (or worse) economic situation than the one they were born into. Upward mobility has not existed to any great degree in two generations. The reason you don't know that, is because in a First World County like America, there are a lot of ways to pacify the Proletariat. You are Middle Class if you get an HVAC Certificate from a Community College and find an outfit that will pay you $27K/yr. You can live independently on that kind of money in most of this country. You can even raise a small family, if you have to, and most Americans don't get a say on whether they want to become parents or not. The real money, the six figure and above 1% and the out of sight uber stratosphere attainment is ALWAYS determined by birth. J.K. Rowling and Oprah are the only two exceptions. And Rowling isn't American. Even Bill Gates did not start out working class. But I'll hold my nose and allow him to be used as an example of self made billionaire, but I challenge you to give me a more recent example of that kind of upward mobility.

You simply cannot say with any credibility "I made it, you can too!". I hear it ALL the time: "pull up your pants and marry your baby's mama and get a Master's of Business Administration and pay back your student loan and while you are at it, pay back all the welfare your momma used up raising you. It doesn't work that way. A person who has been underclass all their lives does not become a Master of the Universe because Joe Conservative does not want to pay for the Section 8 vouchers that keep underclass underachievers from under highway overpasses. Asians are models of intellectual rigor and high attainment ... ... in America!!!!! In India or China, however, poverty... bone crushing, soul sucking poverty is rampant and in China alone, the number of individuals living beneath even the standard of those ruined men that haunt public libraries all over America number in the many hundreds of millions.

That GINI index Skiffrace was talking about... the index that measures how wealth (and income) is distributed through a population... well a lower number is better. The best I know of is in the 20's... 24 maybe. That would be a Scandinavian country like ... Denmark or Norway. An awful GINI would be something in the 50's. China is in the high 40's. So is the U.S. Think about that. The same chinese... same DNA, same candlepower, same work ethic. Same everything! In China, they are nobody, heck when there are 1.5 billion of anything what could the individual worth of any one of them be??? In China you have 175 IQ peasants, living on the ragged edge of starvation. In America as well. The difference is: in China, the 125 IQ party leader knows that s/he is where s/he is because they had the right parents to set them on the right path. They do not mock or belittle their inferiors or openly challenge them to alter their status. In India they go so far as to tattoo your status on your forehead at birth to preserve the social order. In America they do it with less obvious, but no less effective means.

Conservatives pretend they don't know all this and go on all day about how people should just be like them and and and... rubbish. BTW the HVAC technician... the days when your kid could get one of those jobs is gone. Over. Conservatives will be the last to admit what all of us here can see out our windows. Things have changed. Utterly. You CANNOT continue to use the same talking points of 20 years ago. Or you can, but no one will take you seriously. That would bother me, but that's me.

H

99% of this post is pure, unadulterated, BS, poppycock. What the hell rock do you live under?? MOST people, especially in America, DO MOVE through different economic conditions as they progress through life. Mostly up (sometimes down).
YOU have decided to be a victim. YOU choose to believe that life is stacked against you. YOU make no attempt to read the landscape and figure it out. Holy Jesus - SAD SAD SAD.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

99% of this post is pure, unadulterated, BS, poppycock. What the hell rock do you live under?? MOST people, especially in America, DO MOVE through different economic conditions as they progress through life. Mostly up (sometimes down).
YOU have decided to be a victim. YOU choose to believe that life is stacked against you. YOU make no attempt to read the landscape and figure it out. Holy Jesus - SAD SAD SAD.

I'll get back to you with some links to prove otherwise. But I think part of your problem is you are confusing upward mobility with attainment. If you grew up in a middle class home and go to college and raise your own children in a middle class home that is NOT upward mobility. It isn't bad, of course, it isn't, but it isn't upward mobility. And what makes you think I think I am a victim? What makes you think I don't live quite well, in fact? Because I don't own a car? I don't own a car so I can live VERY well instead of simply very well. Its a choice I have made. A choice I have. But, life is indeed, stacked against me. That isn't open to debate. Nor is it your problem.

H

[rzzz]

The common wisdom the past few years was that upward mobility has stalled throughout most of the USA

However there was an article a few months ago that suggested maybe this trend was overblown.

Class in America: Mobility, measured | The Economist

Upward mobility is uneven throughout the USA. For example, in the poor southern states few people make it out of poverty. In Minnesota few people from middle class families go on to be more than middle class. However, poor people in California have a good shot at moving into the middle class or above.

[skiffrace]

Originally Posted by Leisesturm

...In fact 99.99% of people die in the same (or worse) economic situation than the one they were born into. Upward mobility has not existed to any great degree in two generations. ...

Originally Posted by ccjarider

...MOST people, especially in America, DO MOVE through different economic conditions as they progress through life. Mostly up (sometimes down)....

Socio-economic mobility in the US

I think the data indicates that while the upward mobility in the US exists, its extent is exaggerated both by the media, and in the public perception.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by skiffrace

I think the data indicates that while the upward mobility in the US exists, its extent is exaggerated both by the media, and in the public perception.

you meant, "and in the Conservative perception", right?

[freemkt]

Originally Posted by EnricoV

Good lord. Okay, you win. Having internet access is one of the necessities of life. Food, shelter, clothing, and monthly internet access from your mobile phone.

BTW, people can use friends' computers, family's computers, neighbors computers, computers where they work (while they're looking for another job as one poster suggested), at university libraries, at job centers, at internet cafes or coffee shops, at historical and genealogical libraries, in hotel lobbies, at airports ...

Sure at some you may have to pay a useage fee (which is less than a monthly subscription), but no one said any necessity of life was free.


Um, no. Tell me how Craig's List works.

Last I looked, Craig's List wasn't the only place one could look for a job. And maybe pounding the pavement would be more fruitful than sitting on your computer, waiting for some job to pop up on Craig's List.

Look. I can understand that having internet access is great. It's just not a necessity.

Let me repeat:
Originally Posted by freemkt
Um...do you have any idea how Craigslist works? That's where most jobs are posted these days especially the vast majority of low-end jobs.


Where else are you going to find the lowest jobs like, say, dishwasher? You think employers are going to post those jobs on Monster?

[freemkt]

Originally Posted by Steve Pickering

If you are only looking on Craig's List you are missing a lot of good jobs. Try the Union Halls. Try the employment service. Try the newspaper. The world does not revolve around Craig's List, and it is not the ultimate job source.

??? I'm unskilled, I tried looking for good jobs and that didn't work at all so now I look for crappy jobs. I went to some temp agencies, filled out all the paperwork...you know those endless sheets where they list hundreds of skills for you to check off? I had about a half dozen skills and apparently I didn't have any skills they were short of.