Will Portland ever build more freeway lanes? (buy, quality of life)

[doity]

Originally Posted by urbanlife78

Adding freeway lanes doesn't fix the solutions. Often times when lanes are added, it does nothing to alleviate the traffic.

I just love this argument that adding lanes to an existing freeway or highway does not help to relieve congestion. Oh really? Is this one of those myths, like 'climate change' that if repeated enough becomes truth? Because if that was the case, why do cities build bigger sewer systems as a city grows? Why build a freeway at all if existing highways are currently working? Why build highways if the dirt road seems to work just fine? Why expand the number of airport landing strips if the current one is working just fine?

Of course building extra lanes would help. How on earth can someone make a statement like that and expect to be taken seriously? We all know that the majority of Portland residents and those in the immediate metro are not going to jump on MAX anytime soon. It is too slow and unless you live and work right on the line it is not convenient and not much cheaper than the price of gas if at all.

[urbanlife78]

Originally Posted by doity

I just love this argument that adding lanes to an existing freeway or highway does not help to relieve congestion. Oh really? Is this one of those myths, like 'climate change' that if repeated enough becomes truth? Because if that was the case, why do cities build bigger sewer systems as a city grows? Why build a freeway at all if existing highways are currently working? Why build highways if the dirt road seems to work just fine? Why expand the number of airport landing strips if the current one is working just fine?

Of course building extra lanes would help. How on earth can someone make a statement like that and expect to be taken seriously? We all know that the majority of Portland residents and those in the immediate metro are not going to jump on MAX anytime soon. It is too slow and unless you live and work right on the line it is not convenient and not much cheaper than the price of gas if at all.

If you are expecting adding highway lanes to relieve traffic, that will not happen. It will still back up during rush hour. I am not saying it shouldn't be done or it isn't needed, but it will not reduce the traffic one deals with, and if anything it will encourage more people to use that highway which adds to the traffic.

You relieve traffic by providing alternative forms of transportation because those people not driving are not dealing with traffic.

If you work downtown, the MAX is cheaper than gas, parking, and maintenance on your car. It is also similar commute times as driving during rush hour.

[pdxMIKEpdx]

Urbanlife, with those kind of ideas, you are going to fit in perfectly in Portland.

But once you get here, you are going to see first hand how your ideas are working, and then wonder why the traffic is so bad.

There are a lot of things in this world that work great in theory, but when put into practice, can't hold their water.

The main focus in Portland for YEARS has been traffic calming and road diets.
The whole idea was to force people out of their cars and on to public transportation.
Now that Portland has grown so much, I can see a backlash coming.
People are bitching about why it takes so long to get anywhere here.

But, that's what was wanted by the City of Portland all along.
Remember the greenie, sustainable, environmentally friendly, back to nature hoopla that went on a few years ago?
This is a direct result of all of that.
Portland really bought into all that stuff.

My old neigborhood of Woodstock is a prime example.
Back in 1995 or so, the big plan was to put in landscaped medians and crosswalks for pedestrians, and create those bubble curbs so the busses didn't have to pull over to pick passengers up.
The idea was to slow down traffic and make it bus and pedestrian friendly.

They spent a fortune with pretty landscaping, trees that were planted ten to fifteen years ago have matured and become beautiful, and now the "village center" of Woodstock has a nice homey feel to it.
People love it and the neighborhood has swelled in poopulation.

But....people are now complaining what a bottleneck it has become, because realistically you can't drive faster that 10 or fifteen miles per hour through there.
Exactly what was wanted when they installed all that years ago.

It's becoming a fight between the pass-through commuters who want efficiency, and the neighborhood residents who don't want fast traffic.
Woodstock Blvd has become a major east-west route because all the major other east-west routes get so clogged up and slow.
An example of traffic diversion at it's best!

The new plan is to tear it all out, eliminate on street parking, install bike lanes and remove the center median, all to make traffic flow faster through there, but "walkability" is a concern and they are planning to install more crosswalks...
It should be interesting to see how they "fix" a problem that doesn't really exist.

Another Portland "ten year trend cycle" is coming to an end, and new people with new ideas have moved in.
Portland is going to be forced to grow up and abandon it's groovy, laidback, dreamer lifestyle reputation.
The Portland everyone wanted, and moved to by the thousands is gone again.
Surprise!




Also, the traffic congestion you guys seem to think goes on non-stop, isn't.
It seems to be the worst during rush hours in morning and in the afternoon from 4pm to 6 pm.

During the weekdays when everyone is at work, driving around Portland really isn't bad at all.

[urbanlife78]

Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx

Urbanlife, with those kind of ideas, you are going to fit in perfectly in Portland.

But once you get here, you are going to see first hand how your ideas are working, and then wonder why the traffic is so bad.

There are a lot of things in this world that work great in theory, but when put into practice, can't hold their water.



Also, the traffic congestion you guys seem to think goes on non-stop, isn't.
It seems to be the worst during rush hours in the afternoon from 4pm to 6 pm.

During the day when everyone is at work, driving around Portland really isn't bad at all.

Would Portland been better off looking like this or how it really is today?




There is nothing wrong with putting in highways and freeways, but thinking that they will somehow solve the traffic problems is just naive.

But you do have a point, traffic in Portland is only bad in some places for 2-3 hours a day.

[pdxMIKEpdx]

I was against the Mt Hood freeway when it was proposed, but I have always thought that a major effort to turn Powell (Hwy 26) into a more efficient east west corridor should have happened.

Think how nice it would be to be coming east bound through the tunnel, be able to shoot straight across the Ross Island bridge, then continue east without impediment until you get to 205.

Same way going the other direction.

That would have really connected the east and west sides of Portland, and who knows what an affect that would have had.

Also, an impoved four lane "Johnson Creek Blvd freeway" from the Sellwood bridge to 205 would have worked quite well.
Back then, the Johnson Creek route was way out in the sticks, and it could have been done easily.

[sorupaa]

If the orange line went to Lake Oswego and the green line went to West Linn.

If the bypass had commuter rail along it/ i5. then went from Vancouver to Salem.

I think that would make Portland the best city on the west coast to live in for a while

[bler144]

Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx

Think how nice it would be to be coming east bound through the tunnel, be able to shoot straight across the Ross Island bridge, then continue east without impediment until you get to 205.

I totally agree that would help untangle at least several of the major snags. The reason I suspect it probably can't happen is the cost (and political price?) of eminent domain to acquire all the property you'd need to do it.

I'd disagree with both you and urbanlife to an extent. On the one hand, I agree that adding lanes can help in some situations, but I disagree strongly that it's a cure all.

In most places that snag the issue isn't the number of lanes relative to congestion, it's the inefficiency of traffic getting on/off or otherwise merging. For example, if you're moving west from I-84->405->26 the issue isn't the shortage of lanes - the left lane is usually wide open even at rush - it's that the traffic trying to stay westbound has to merge right across a solid lane of traffic trying to move left to go northbound. You could add a dozen more lanes and the tangle would remain.

Rationalizing the system, as with your Ross Island suggestion, to relieve specific snags can matter more in a lot of places than the abstract capacity.

Also, while the bulk of the problem is during rush, there are other periods where traffic surges cause backup - coming back into the city on a Sun. afternoon, for example.

[pdxMIKEpdx]

Also, while the bulk of the problem is during rush, there are other periods where traffic surges cause backup - coming back into the city on a Sun. afternoon, for example.

Well you can't have everything.
The coast and the mountains are so close and so many people take advantage of them.

That's one of the prices we pay for living here and being able to access wonderful things like that on a whim.




Being in my late sixties, I remember the times when all this traffic congestion and these types of problems really didn't exist.

Once you got out of Portland...........................

It was a far far different Portland and Oregon back then, in more ways than just population.

You guys have no idea of the wonderfully natural, beautiful, and peaceful old Oregon that existed before everyone and their mothers decided to move here, and it became such a populous "nanny" state...

The only people that really cared that Oregon even existed were Oregonians, and we liked it that way.

In fact, I believe that we made Oregon such an attractive place to live, that we ruined it for ourselves.

You're welcome, I guess.

[mwruckman]

Originally Posted by rzzz

I guess we'll find out how that all pans out in 50 years after 1 billion cars in China are adding to the mix.

Lets not forget the 1 billion plus vehicles rolling on the roads of India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Also the automobile revolution will reach the nearly 2.5 billion people expected in Africa by 2050. There will be more vehicles in traffic jams on the roads of Utter Predesh than in the entire USA.

So "Welcome carbon monoxide, hello sulphur dioxide, the air the air is everywhere! "**

From the rock opera "Hair", 1968 by MacDermott,Ragni and Rado.

[Leisesturm]

Originally Posted by pdxMIKEpdx

Being in my late sixties, I remember the times when all this traffic congestion and these types of problems really didn't exist.

You should try not to post when you feel like this. Its kind of embarrassing. For us! My MIL is old enough to be your mother but her worldview is that of a twenty something. She has seen a lot of change in her life but she is not surprised or dismayed by it. Did you really think Portland could remain like the one horse town you grew up in? That's kind of icky.