Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Back when Measure 5 was passed it was not uncommon to see your property valuation for tax purposes go up almost 25% a year.
Sure, but conditions change.
And setting a hard cap that makes sense in one environment can have unforeseen consequences when the market changes. It's one argument for having statutes 'sunset' after say 7-10 years and require renewal or update.
Ultimately it's about the proper balance between the individual and the community (not to mention the balance between individuals) and the broad brush rarely works well, particularly over the long term. Not to say the legislature would be any smarter - they are certainly capable of boneheaded policy much worse than this - but Measures in particular usually meet a short-term demand with little eye on how the ground can shift.
You don't want to make systems too sophisticated, but a flat 3% cap on MAV is too simplistic - it's not even tied to inflation or incomes, either of which at least would have had some logical basis. That said, 25 years into it, it's likely to be challenging to unravel even if the political will exists.
The problem is, Portland citizens and voters are hugely apathetic when it comes to things like this...
They just don't care as long as they have brew, bikes, walkability, food carts, biking, back yard chickens, etc.
As long as living is good, nobody pays attention to what goes on behind the scenes.
Then all of a sudden it's "Why are my taxes so high?", How come traffic is so frickin' congested and slow?", How come we have all these cool things like the Tram and streetcars and a nice waterfront, but we can't afford to take care of our city streets?", "Where's all the tax money going?"
Gee, I wonder.
When SHTF though, Portland voters are great at knee jerk reactionary voting without regard to consequences.
They are told that if you pass this measure, it will only cost you .05% percent of every thousand dollars your house is worth.
(They don't do the math and realize that's a yearly 125.00 for an average $250,000 house in Portland.)
They are told PASS IT, it will fix everything, don't worry!
They think, well that's not so bad, .05% is not so much, and vote to pass it, forgetting about the other twenty measures just like it that they have passed over the years.
Then in the fall, when the property tax bill arrives in the mail they mess their pants.
(Thank you-know-who that the property tax bills come out right before election time, or the messy pants situation would be worse the next year.)
Your forethought and analysis of future consequences is a rare thing around here. And the people that run this city know all this.
I got fed up with all this, and decided to move out of the city limits several years ago.
I realized an immediate and substantial savings on taxes and utilities.
To put it into an understandable perspective, the monthly savings were enough to make the monthly payments on a brand spankin' new boat and pay for summer-time moorage fees on my favorite stretch of the Willamette River.
I am less than 30 minutes away from my old Woodstock neighborhood, where I still own a house that's rented out to family.
If I want the "Portland Experience", I can enjoy it without the City of Portland bleeding my wallet dry.
Last edited by pdxMIKEpdx; 07-29-2014 at 03:43 PM..
OK, I am a card carrying member of the "progressive party" and I don't mind paying taxes as long as the revenue is used wisely. I hate waste. Would it be helpful if sales tax is introducd on goods excluding basic needs like food and clothing? I think Massachusetts and Minnesota have a structure like. I mean, too high property tax reduces home ownership and therefore defeats the whole democratic/progressive idea of home ownership "for all". The idea that we keep paying property tax in perpetuity is ridiculous to begin with. Its not like we actually ever own the house. Just default on property tax payment, and the house can be taken by the local government.
Would it be helpful if sales tax is introducd on goods excluding basic needs like food and clothing?
That's a very sore subject here in Oregon.
Even if it's promised the tax would stay the same, property taxes would be lowered, or it would go away after a few years, most Oregonians would not support it.
The newcomers coming from places that already have a sales tax always want it.
Although Portlanders (and Oregonians to a point) are very politically apathetic, Oregonians are smart enough to know that when politicians smile and promise something like that about a tax, in reality the tax will never go away, it will just keep increasing, everything that was promised gets taken back, and very soon you're worse off than before.
It's hard to describe the politics of Oregon.
Everyone thinks that it heavily liberal progressive democrat, but when you start talking to people, you find out that it's much more "Progressive Libertarian".
Location: Winter nightime low 60,summer daytime high 85, sunny 300 days/year, no hablamos ingles aquÃ
700 posts, read 1,492,774 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by tprice7111
Would it be helpful if sales tax is introducd on goods excluding basic needs like food and clothing? I think Massachusetts and Minnesota have a structure like.
Add Pennsylvania to that list. It is a great concept where "efficient" is well balanced with "just".
However, the oppressive Oregon income tax should be reduced before reducing any other taxes.
This thread is a little misleading - even Multnomah county taxes are not far from "average": Tax Paid as % of Median Home Value: County Rank (nationally) 1,166 out of 2,773 counties
Washington County tax is even less: Tax Paid as % of Median Home Value: County Rank (nationally) 1,254 out of 2,773 counties
And Clackamas County less still: Tax Paid as % of Median Home Value :County Rank (nationally) 1,407 out of 2,773 counties
I mean, too high property tax reduces home ownership and therefore defeats the whole democratic/progressive idea of home ownership "for all".
Correct. Home ownership is one of cornerstones of engaged, participatory civil society (and one of the best financial moves you can make in your life)
Quote:
The idea that we keep paying property tax in perpetuity is ridiculous to begin with.
Its not like we actually ever own the house. Just default on property tax payment, and the house can be taken by the local government.
After 3 years to be exact.
I am not sure though about the "idea that we keep paying property tax in perpetuity is ridiculous to begin with"
As long as you want public schools, police and fire, the money has to come from somewhere. People who use those services should pay directly, for as long as they are using it.
I got fed up with all this, and decided to move out of the city limits several years ago.
I realized an immediate and substantial savings on taxes and utilities.
To put it into an understandable perspective, the monthly savings were enough to make the monthly payments on a brand spankin' new boat and pay for summer-time moorage fees on my favorite stretch of the Willamette River.
I am less than 30 minutes away from my old Woodstock neighborhood, where I still own a house that's rented out to family.
If I want the "Portland Experience", I can enjoy it without the City of Portland bleeding my wallet dry.
erm, Mike... I really hate to disagree strenuously with you, especially given the close to room temperature nature of our interactions of late, but... I don't believe a word of this. You come off as extremely bitter and sour about your decision to leave Portland and the traffic getting back into and out of it drives you round the twist. You care way too much about the local politics to be as over it all as you are claijming now. Prove me wrong. It's easy, lighten up on the old PDX... or not, but then if you say... "Frankly my dear, I don't give I'm going to cut you off and say "liar, liar, pants on fire. Which, btw, is not the worst thing one could be. I'd think being a heroin addict would be much worse.
You know... as a relative newcomer to the city and as a person of extremely modest means and therefore subject to a number of life situations of which those more... erm ... established rarely ever encounter, let me give you all some infromation of which you might not be aware. I hear constantly about how there is need for a sales tax, the reasoning being established homeowners have bought everything they'll ever need for the rest of their lives escept for food and clothing and these items are never taxed in any sales tax program. Income tax, however, should be repealed, the reason being of course, the obvious. Washingtons sales tax is 9.5% or therabouts? Didjas know that Portland has a rental car tax of 17% and a rental vehicle licesne recovery fee (tax) of an additional 2%? Washington County does not have this tax. I now pay an additional $40 just in tax, on any rental car I use now that I live in Portland. Enterprise turns over $23 million dollars in tax revenue over to Multnomah County every year. Is that pocket change?
Hotels in Portland charge a 17% lodging tax and an additional 2% Portland Tourism Assessment. Cable companies, cell phone companies, utilities of all kinds are charging taxes on behalf of Multnomah County and if there isn't enough revenue stream from these various sources of tax revenue then a 9% sales tax isn't going to fix things. Guaranteed if the income tax were repealed and a sales tax put in you all would go ballistic when the reality hit that you actually do buy stuff on a near daily basis. The tax outrage would be constant and unrelenting. If an annual bite causes this much hand wringing imagine what daily usury would do to your stress levels. Washingtonians can come here to attempt to preserve some of their hard earned wages. What would become of us if Portland joined Washington in implementing a sales tax? Does Idaho have one? Would you be willing to fill up in Boise every week to escape the tax that for certain would be imposed on gasoline?? We should be careful what we wish for I think.
I found this online from some kind of educational institution in South Carolina. There was no copyright statement so I decided to repost one of the relevant sections.
Incidentally, the specific case is out of date (1993) and on the other side of the country, but it did say most of South Carolina's property taxes (58%) went to schools.
The Case For the Property Tax One might rightfully ask, given the resentments against the property tax, why does it persist? There are a number of reasons why. Chief among them are the fact that it provides a stable source of revenue for local governments; nonresident property owners are taxed; it is often used to finance property related services and to construct publicly owned infrastructure; it is difficult to evade; and, it has enabled local governments to maintain some autonomy from state and federal control.
Stable Source of Revenue. For all its disadvantages, the property tax does have one advantage over rival revenue sources, such as the income tax and sales tax. It does not fluctuate as quickly with local and national economic ups and downs. When the economy is up, that may be a disadvantage. But, when it is down, one doesn't find sudden, unexpected drops in property tax revenues of significant proportions. Thus, it is relatively stable. And, in most cases predictable as well. To appreciate predictability, one need go no further than recall the difficulty the state of South Carolina has experienced in recent years with its revenue forecasting and the resulting budget reductions, often necessary in mid-year. One doesn't find this very often in local government, and the stability and predictability of the property tax is probably one of the chief reasons.
Reaches Nonresident Property Owners. Property owners who benefit from local services, but who live in other locales may often avoid sales and income taxes. But, they don't avoid the real property tax. Particularly property that is income producing needs to share its portion of the tax responsibility for financing government. By reaching nonresident owners, the property tax helps distribute the tax burden to all who should pay something.
Finances Property Related Services. Local government services like police and fire protection, construction and maintenance of streets, curbs, sidewalks, and stormwater drainage systems benefit most all in a community. Good services and solid infrastructure in a local government will, other things being equal, result in higher property values than in other communities with lower quality services and inadequate infrastructure.
Difficult to Evade. Failure to pay property taxes may result in a lien on the property, and utlimately in a tax sale to recoup the delinquent taxes. Compared to other taxes, collection rates for the property tax are relatively high, ranging often from 92 to 98 percent collection ratios. Although admittedly legally complex, property taxes are harder to evade than other taxes. Observe, for instance the controversy over mail order sales tax collections by state governments. Or, trying to collect income generated in another state. The property tax is much harder to evade and avoid.
Promotes Local Autonomy. Finally, the property tax provides more than security and stability for many local government, it also can provide a measure of independence. Local governments are subject to a variety of state and federal forms of oversight. As political subdivisions of the state they are circumscribed by constitutional and statutory requirements and constraints, such as forms of government they may use, revenue raising options, and general powers and duties.
In short, local governments are often dependent upon higher levels of government. Often, this translates into financial dependency. Yet, local governments are the closest to the people, and in the eyes of many the most accountable to the people. The property tax allows many local governments to be responsive to their citizens and deliver the services they need and desire. Why? Because for many governments, as in South Carolina, it is the only tax local officials have effective control over. In the words of one observer, "without a steady, strong flow of revenue, local governments cannot govern." The property tax is an important source of local revenue controlled at the local level.
I went from a city lot to a little over forty acres.
I went from well over $4000 a year in property taxes to less than $2000.
My water bill went from about 300 a month to way less than 100.
I don't pay sewer since I am on a septic tank.
My garbage is cheaper.
In fact all my utilities are a little cheaper.
All in all I am saving a little over $500 a month in taxes and utitlities.
My boat payment is 350 a month not including insurance.
My moorage runs me 100 a month for a nice covered slip that I rent for six months and pay in advance for, and get a discount because I pay cash.
What's so hard to believe about that?
You want to be a sucker and live in Portland?
Go for it.
But you don't call me a liar because you live in your own little dreamworld, don't pay attention to what's going on around you, and have no idea about Portland or what I am talking about.
And as far as Portland goes, it's my hometown.
I pay attention to what's going on.
I've lived here for over sixty years.
I am a fouth generation Oregonian.
My family is very involved with the State, both politically and economically.
I am not some starry eyed idealistic newcomer that has bought into the Portland bull--shnit, or came here from elsewhere with unrealistic dreams and views about this State.
In my lifetime I've seen Portland change from a fairly interesting, gritty port town, to a gentrified yuppie white persons playground.
All my traditional remote hunting and fishing areas are not that remote anymore, have been ruined by over population in my opinion.
The State and the old Oregon lifestyle that I grew up with have changed for the worse and disappeared forever.
Oregon has turned into a mini-California type nanny state.
And people like you say I am full of crap.
Oh-well.
Bitter? you betcha.
Sour? Uh-huh!
Cynical? double you betcha.
Pissed off? Yep.
Involved? For the rest of my life buddy.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.