Portland, OR: Anti-Science Leader (Joseph: neighborhood, buy, private schools)

[bler144]

Originally Posted by Winnyard Bletch

Spoken like a true Oregonian. We are totally unique, different and weird. Unless of course it makes us look bad. Then we are just like everyone else.

Not unlike Fox Mulder, we all want to believe something.

Whether that's magic underpants, or UFOs, the magnificence of skinny jeans, or the transcendent power of avoiding fluoride.

[sorupaa]

I haven't gotten a shot for awhile and won't ever unless I get bit by a zombi. I used to give blood get a shot at the dentist ect.

[mlkmnsgrl]

So let me get this straight, the Portland LIBERALS are anti-vaccine and anti-fluoride, even to the point of being anti-science? Am I reading this right?! Just popped over to Portland's forum for the first time since I've just found out there's a slim chance we're moving there in June--I was born and raised in Oregon, born at good ol' Bes Kaiser Hospital downtown. But except for brief visits for weddings, etc, haven't spent time there since the 90s. So, grain of salt and by all means correct me, but sounds like Portland's liberals are still glorified hippies. Let me explain, before I'm stones (pun intended) by the crowd:

We're on the east coast now. By definition (and yes, yes, WAY over-generalizing here, I've got a MA in Anthropology, you don't have to tell me), an ultra-Liberal is pro-government, pro-science as it currently swings, pro-trendy take out the bad corportate GMO guys, and what have you. That means the libs are PRO-vaccine and consider those who don't vaccinate to be mindless Christian ideologues who can't see past their Bibles (which don't mention vaccines). They are pro-fluoride because underserved populations of homeless minority kids don't have a toothbrush so we have to pump the municipal water full of fluoride to save their little teeth--we owe it to them since we're so over-privileged and heartless. Libs out here go out of their way to emphasize that science is always right (never mind they all vehemently defended the Big Bang and threw "non-believers" under the bus until science decided to move on to the next theory and now they surely will support the next theory), to the point that any expression of opposition automatically ensures that you are either stupid, Christian, or need rehabilitation (generally all 3).

On the converse, out here ultra-conservatives (again, terribly exaggerating my generalizations to make the contrast clear) are Christian (some very fundamentalist, most just your typical believe-in-the-Bible and might go to church type), think government is the devil and very likely keeping a secret list out there to someday hunt them down, think vaccines might be a pharmaceutical company plot and that they use aborted fetal tissue as a main ingredient, consider fluoride to be a) an inconvenience since that means every March systems get flushed and the water tastes like chlorine or b) is a government plot to denude population health, thus making us dependent on the government, and thinks science is evil and, of course, in the pocket of the government.

Hippies, then, are some kind of odd mix of the two? Which do they identify with more? Anyone want to right a well-reasoned UN-exaggerated or over-generalized treatise on how Oregonians are currently defining liberals and conservatives? I'm just curious.

And again, before I get stones in my general direction (and in the hope that this first post won't mean I get zero feedback on any housing questions I send your way later this week), please have mercy. I am ECSTATIC at even the tiniest prospect of moving back to Portland. It's been part of my dreams for quite some time and I love the Oregonian culture. I loved going to high school with a mix of very, very good people who had different opinions but didn't shove them on people (finished high school in rural Tennessee where they weren't quite so friendly to the outsider who went to the wrong church). We're a little bit hippy in that we homeschool, and a lot bit conservative in that we are Christian and listen to talk radio. Lol. Husband is an epidemiologist and if we come out, he'd be working for the NW American Indian tribes to research the health concerns they've collected data on within the community of WA, OR, ID.

...and now I'm hesitating to click post lest I start a firestorm...good thing I know you're all nice Oregonians!

[JonathanLB]

My dad has the money to buy organic everything and I'll happily eat what he has, but honestly I prefer my GMO foods thanks very much! I don't want small pathetic little bananas. Have you seen those things? I want a big, healthy piece of fruit not a small and pathetic one. They don't taste better, either. That's largely in your head. If you find something specific you think tastes better, great, but saying "organic tastes better" isn't correct or even logical.

[bler144]

Originally Posted by mlkmnsgrl

Hippies, then, are some kind of odd mix of the two? Which do they identify with more? Anyone want to right a well-reasoned UN-exaggerated or over-generalized treatise on how Oregonians are currently defining liberals and conservatives? I'm just curious.

Those two camps are really umbrella terms that cover a broad range of positions - hippies being one, as you note. So people can pick and choose which segment they want to highlight as representing the whole in order to advance their argument du jour.

Still, as I mentioned above, I think the "Portland liberals are anti-science because fluoride!" argument is oversold. Sometimes measures fail because of politics, and sometimes they fail because they're poorly written.

Look at marijuana - it was defeated in 2012 but passed in 2014 when it was rewritten to address many of the concerns with Measure 80. The bill changed more than the population did.

But the fluoride bill's problems were pretty broad - it was new spending in a year the city was proposing cutting existing programs, it was handled poorly in bringing it to the ballot, and the city really didn't make any case beyond the abstract "fluoride is good!"

The "if you don't vote for it you hate kids!" pitch works with some initiatives (like the Arts Tax) but not in that case, and yes, they split the liberal vote on a number of points without picking up any votes on the conservative side.

The distrust much of the populace has for the mayor's office runs pretty deep at this point, and Hales hasn't done much to regain what Adams lost. Which is a major issue the proposed roads tax will face as well. Ultimately, like fluoride, that measure probably won't pass/fail on whether it's a good idea in the abstract or whether liberals hate science, but on whether city hall can get any traction on selling it to a public already inclined to not extend them the benefit of the doubt.

[sorupaa]

Originally Posted by JonathanLB

My dad has the money to buy organic everything and I'll happily eat what he has, but honestly I prefer my GMO foods thanks very much! I don't want small pathetic little bananas. Have you seen those things? I want a big, healthy piece of fruit not a small and pathetic one. They don't taste better, either. That's largely in your head. If you find something specific you think tastes better, great, but saying "organic tastes better" isn't correct or even logical.

I hate grocery fruit, except there's some fruit that taste the same.

[SETabor]

But there's also the ultra liberal position of anti-big business, anti-chemical anything most exemplified by the anti-GMO crowd. But it also explains the anti-vaccine (no chemicals, no big pharm pumping into the arms of small helpless children) and anti-fluoride crowd (no chemicals added to our pristine and pure water). You go far enough in both directions (liberal and conservative) and their beliefs begin to align although the reasons for those beliefs are opposite.

[urbanlife78]

Originally Posted by JonathanLB

My dad has the money to buy organic everything and I'll happily eat what he has, but honestly I prefer my GMO foods thanks very much! I don't want small pathetic little bananas. Have you seen those things? I want a big, healthy piece of fruit not a small and pathetic one. They don't taste better, either. That's largely in your head. If you find something specific you think tastes better, great, but saying "organic tastes better" isn't correct or even logical.

Weird, the bundle of organic bananas I bought last week were normal size, and taste is subjective, so if someone says something tastes better, it is true for them.

[PNW-type-gal]

Originally Posted by JonathanLB

My dad has the money to buy organic everything and I'll happily eat what he has, but honestly I prefer my GMO foods thanks very much! I don't want small pathetic little bananas. Have you seen those things? I want a big, healthy piece of fruit not a small and pathetic one. They don't taste better, either. That's largely in your head. If you find something specific you think tastes better, great, but saying "organic tastes better" isn't correct or even logical.

There are no "GMO bananas" available in the US. And you can breed taste right out of a food by "standard" hybridizing techniques just as well - look what happened to the Red Delicious apple when they started breeding it for uniform size and the best color

The Awful Reign of the Red Delicious

[mlkmnsgrl]

Originally Posted by PNW-type-gal

There are no "GMO bananas" available in the US. And you can breed taste right out of a food by "standard" hybridizing techniques just as well - look what happened to the Red Delicious apple when they started breeding it for uniform size and the best color

The Awful Reign of the Red Delicious

I know, right? I have wonderful memories of red delicious as the only apples we liked. Super sweet and CRISP. Now they're just a mushy mess. I hoped that didn't extend to local Portland area reds, though. Did anyone keep them pure? A real red would be an incredible welcome home!