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Old 12-21-2009, 01:53 AM
 
10 posts, read 21,595 times
Reputation: 11

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philwithbeard must be a true Oregonian. Only people I know who think Lake O is quenticential suburbia.

The streets meander, are wooded, and wrap around a lake. The houses are not identical or tucked into neat little pill box plots.

You took umbridge with Lake O but not Troutdale? Vancouver? Come on Phil. I know it's slightly pretencious by Oregon standards, but it's pretty nice. The people have money but they're not snubs.

There's a town square with walking around, shops, a jogging path around the lake. It's a lot closer to what she's looking for then Hillsboro (ha!) or (Forest Grove)... and Vancouver. Yeah, you can walk around down town but it aint quaint.

Like I said Hawthorn is perfect for what she described. And she does have a car. Trying to live around the Max line is insanity. Public transpo in the greater Portland area means hopping busses unless you wanna ride east to west all day.

If you want down town walk to everything convenience in a nice area try SW or north, around the 20's streets, not too far from Burnside.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:28 AM
 
33 posts, read 124,921 times
Reputation: 45
Be the way I stand by my suggestions. And, I wouldn't want to live in many of the places i said. But, I felt they are the best for the lady who is the OP. Many of you forgot her budget was $1350 and she wants a 3 bedroom (preferably House) that is safe for her child. Well, You can just forget about Hawthorne, Downtown, Inner NW Laurelhurst or any of the inner upscale areas of Portland, because they are very expensive and you will be stuck in a small place or in an unsafe spot.

East Gresham has all you need and you will be happy there. I lived near Boring (not Boring at all, except the name ) and was in love with the area and the view. The people out there are real friendly. If you go to small church there, don't be surprised if people invite you over for supper. Sound like Kentucky? If that bugs you, you can always move to an sterile, everyone mind their own business housing track in Troutdale or Boring. Sandy is wonderful..

Troutdale has lot of charm and you are near the Gorge! And many places in East Gresham you can get a Mt Hood View.. Its nice going shopping and looking outside on a clear day (wow, good luck if you can find one), and seeing that beaming white beauty rising above the town.

North Vancouver and Ridgefield are great places too.. Longer commute, but cheaper, more family oriented and very safe. Salmon Creek is excellent place with an excellent hospital. I know because I was rushed to the emergency room and had a fleet of nurses and doctors on me in seconds. Never had such great service. If your in an inner city Portland hospital, prepare for long waits and crappier service. The bum dying of a heart attack will get serviced before you do!

If you love our cold, foggy and treacherous, but beautiful coast.. The pretty town of Forest Grove would be a great choice. There are many nice houses on old growth oak lined streets for rent there. Take advantage of that. The commute isn't so bad.. Is 1.5 hours (45 min each way), 5 days a week, such a sacrifice to living in a more peaceful, small town friendly environment?

Personally, I hated living in Portland city limits.. Thanks , but no thanks. Nice to breathe fresh air again. Portland is one of few towns you can live in country and drive right into the city so quickly.
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,657 posts, read 3,881,373 times
Reputation: 889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoni777 View Post
Be the way I stand by my suggestions. .....
And I still stand by the suggestions of DaveFR, that if the OP's husband is a work from home High Tech person, the best place will be west side of Portland, maybe Hillsboro, Ceder Hills, or out along US-26.

And, no I am not a native Oregonian. I moved here from the Mid-West where social / cultural / economic / racial / social status and stratification resulted in isolation of the larger community members from each other. This complete loss of community was brought on by the constant expansion of suburbia, total reliance on the automobile for even the most basics of survival necessities. And when gasoline hit $4.00 per gallon and the layoffs started to build, people were stranded trying to find ways to get to and from the food stores. People stealing gas from neighbor's cars using a screw driver to puncture the gas tank, so they can go to a job that doesn't pay enough from them to drive to work, feed themselves, much less pay rent and utilities. Total breakdown of any form or feeling of a 'community'.

And I blame this on uncontrolled and un-contained suburban sprawl. As a realist, I know there will always be L.O, West Linn, Clackamas Townships and so on because that is where and how some people (and their families) want to live. But is isn't right or advisable for everyone. Just as Portland's NW 23rd street is not for everyone; but lord for those who NW 23rd is a version of mecca, it is just right.

And I am waiting for you to post how you hope Clackamas County is going to help out Multnomah County deal with the large Bush-Cheney Shanty Town at the Airport for homeless people. Did I hear you suggest Clackamas County set aside a large track of land to handle the overflow during the wet rainy season? Clackamas County tax funded food bank for the homeless shanty town? NO?? Well the main road from the so called Dignity Town at PDX is 82nd and I-205. And every morning bus line #72 brings homeless south down 82nd to find a corner to panhandle on.

Sorry, but I have had my fill of suburban communities that isolate themselves away from the true cost of living in a greater metro community with the central city getting dumped on because of the large number of people in need of social services, Yet these same isolated suburban communities won't step up and spend their tax dollars on providing half way housing for drug addicts or shelters for homeless transients (aka vagrants, bums, or hobos.)

I could go on and on, but this thread is now too long as it is.

I just hope if the Original Poster is still around, she and her husband will excuse the intramural family squabble that's going on here. There are lots of places to live that will meet your needs (and budget) in the greater Portland area. But you need to choose for yourself. Sometimes it comes down to what is on the market at the time you choose, and is within your budget. Again, if your husband thinks he will need FiOS internet connection, stick to the West side of town for now.

Phil
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Sherwood, OR
663 posts, read 1,606,838 times
Reputation: 658
Phil...

I've read post after post where you chide the suburbs or use the word like its a disease. Its your opinion, nothing more. I, for one, could do the same for city living.

I have lived in NYC and never felt more disconnected with my neighbors. You didn't even make eye contact with people walking by on the street let alone saying hello. To say that you have to live in a city to feel a sense of community is ridiculous. Maybe thats your experience, but its not everyone's. I also do not like concrete, light pollution, and not being able to see the horizon. I would love to live on acreage way out in the country and be much more self-sustaining, but until I'm in a position to do that, the suburbs are the next best thing.

I don't even understand your statement about how living in the suburbs isolates you from a "true cost of living". I could make a similar argument. There are more school-age children in the suburbs. Are you going to start contributing to their schooling costs? Is Multnomah County going to contribute toward Clackamas County schools? If not, why? Its all for the greater good, isn't it?

I live in Tualatin now (east side of I-5). I am in the high tech field and work from home every day. If I need to get downtown, I can do so without too much trouble during rush hour if I take Barbur Blvd. On weekends and non-rush hour times, my wife and I can get downtown in about 15 minutes. I look out my office window and see trees. I'm 150 yards from the Tualatin River and Browns Ferry Park. I know my neighbors. There's been no crime in my neighborhood since I moved in. I could go on, but I don't want to bore people with my opinion.

FYI - FiOS is not something I would consider when chosing a place to live. FiOS has its share of problems, just like all ISP delivery methods. I have Comcast's 30Mbps service. Only the FiOS top tier plan is faster. 30Mbps is overkill for all but the most intense user.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
771 posts, read 1,308,491 times
Reputation: 420
The real issue of central city vs. suburb boils down to something quite simple - we do not know what to do with our underclass in America.

The city advocates want everyone to pay higher taxes, live in high density (and preferably have no cars) and put up with an underclass that most of whom refuse to work or overcome their addictions. Yes, there are truly needy people and mentally ill out there, but from what I see working in downtown Sacramento, most of them are drug and/or alcohol addicts who are fully capable of working - even if its nothing more than picking up trash (which some of them do, but its cherry picking the recycle stuff out of the trash bins, not picking up what's thrown on the street.

The surburban advocates don't feel they should put up with that crap, plus the perception that underclass children drag school quality down (and it does, sorry city advocates) in the public system, and they don't want their kids exposed to that. But most middle class people can't afford 10-15K a year in private school tuition when they have 1000s in property taxes being spent on a public school system that's failing in the central cities - so they move out to where they feel they are getting value for their dollar.

In my experience, outside of the very largest mega-cities, such as NYC, Chicago, LA, Boston, etc. most of the city advocates are single w/no children, recent college grads doing the hipster thing (at least until Mommy and Daddy yank the subsistence/trust fund support and they are forced to grow up), gay with power incomes, or older DINKs that want to feel young and hip again (and don't have to go to work everyday).

People in these areas that do have children generally have enough income to send them to private school where they don't have to worry about their kid getting doused with lighter fluid and set on fire for telling the truth about some kid stealing something that didn't belong to them.

Neither the Portlands, Sacramentos, Atlantas, Dallases, etc. have the kind of density that somewhat overcomes the underclass issues like NYC and Chicago and Boston that makes the inner city an attractive place for middle class (actually, upper middle, because the middle are completely priced out for the most part) people to live with their children.

Almost without FAIL - and I've been in the transportation planning profession for 22 years, with a Master's degree in it - the transit/city/"liveability" crowd is comprised of young singles or older divorced and/or intentionally ummarried singles who have no idea of what its like to be a parent and send your child out the door wondering if they are going to get shot, beat up, or otherwise assaulted in their school, or exposed to drug and alcohol use. Yes, these problems exist in the 'burbs, too, but not nearly as much of a degree.

As a middle class person with children - who live in a different state, in a very and affluent suburban community of Hartford, CT - and the only reason I agreed for them to live there is the school system is safe and extremely high-quality - who is struggling to pay child support, my rent, my basic living expenses, and is constantly listening to the whining of the underclass who wants more, and the hipsters who want to take away my car and force me to live in overtaxed squalor (using the latest nonsense agenda about climate change, which is a political agenda, not a scientific one), while the underclass is allowed to behave in very irresponsible Jerry Springer fashion - I'll vote for the burbs every time. I only work downtown because I have a good paying job and the office is here. If I could move my job to full-time telecommuting or to a suburban location, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'm not putting down anyone that wants to be "in the city" - and the poster above is correct in that a region should share in the costs of its issues - OTOH, we have a society-wide failure to crack down on underachievement and the Section 8 "I'm a victim, so I deserve your tax dollars" mentality that has permeated a lot of American society below the lower middle class. Its got to stop. If people won't work, then let them starve, and if they want to be addicts/homeless, fine. Set them up in their own area, but don't drag them into the ER when they're drowning in their own vomit.

As to school underachievement, I see 13-14 year old punks skipping school daily. I'm totally in favor of taking those that won't attend school and better themselves immediately into a military style situation. You will either behave - or else.

Then we talk about "Diversity" and "living together crammed like rats in condos."

By the way, I live in an inner ring, older suburb that's only five miles out from the core. So I'm not your typical suburbanite, I'm just tired of people not addressing the debate about the underclass head on, and I'm tired of paying taxes for people that won't work to be as self-reliant as possible. Hell, the bulk of illegals here in California work *hard*. Its just the non-working ones, particularly gang-bangers, get more publicity. It also does not help that we won't enforce the death penalty nor do we seem willing to expand it to cover drug dealing, child sexual abuse, rape, etc.

Finally, so we don't label people , I despise both the far left AND the far right. We need practical solutions nto our problems, and our problems are not centered on God, abortion, religion, gays, climate change or liveability. Let's stick with fixing the stuff that's fixable and quit arguing about meaningless issues while important stuff goes unaddressed.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:51 PM
 
Location: PNW
682 posts, read 2,048,046 times
Reputation: 631
Amen.

I would only add, that yes, Portland's suburbs have a lot of similarities to each other, but that doesn't mean that they are like suburbs everywhere else in the country. Just like city neighborhoods, each one has it's own flavor. The only difference between a city and a suburb in Portland is parking lots. For those that actually venture outside the confines of "Portland City," you will find many unique and interesting stores, restaurants, and culture. It is not simply big box stores.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
771 posts, read 1,308,491 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by figmalt View Post
Amen.

I would only add, that yes, Portland's suburbs have a lot of similarities to each other, but that doesn't mean that they are like suburbs everywhere else in the country. Just like city neighborhoods, each one has it's own flavor. The only difference between a city and a suburb in Portland is parking lots. For those that actually venture outside the confines of "Portland City," you will find many unique and interesting stores, restaurants, and culture. It is not simply big box stores.
And that is the case in nearly EVERY urban area of any size.
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:59 AM
 
Location: Athens Greece
47 posts, read 86,651 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejello
As a middle class person with children - who live in a different state, in a very and affluent suburban community of Hartford, CT - and the only reason I agreed for them to live there is the school system is safe and extremely high-quality - who is struggling to pay child support, my rent, my basic living expenses, and is constantly listening to the whining of the underclass who wants more, and the hipsters who want to take away my car and force me to live in overtaxed squalor (using the latest nonsense agenda about climate change, which is a political agenda, not a scientific one), while the underclass is allowed to behave in very irresponsible Jerry Springer fashion - I'll vote for the burbs every time. I only work downtown because I have a good paying job and the office is here. If I could move my job to full-time telecommuting or to a suburban location, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Hiya!! reading your beat and deciding to live there.. brings me to some issues

1. Hipsters steal cars? scary stuff.. do they threaten to kill or just scare you and take it?
2. about the nonsense climate thing.. right pfffft .... climate. There is a problem with false information/corruption using hipsters for a political win?
3. also is it really true that everybody under middle class act like the Jerry Springer show? This is violent.... do innocent people get hit by chairs in the city? And do they litter?

I'm trying to understand all this underclassed chaos
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
1,657 posts, read 3,881,373 times
Reputation: 889
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPLive View Post
Hiya!! reading your beat and deciding to live there.. brings me to some issues

1. Hipsters steal cars? scary stuff.. do they threaten to kill or just scare you and take it?
2. about the nonsense climate thing.. right pfffft .... climate. There is a problem with false information/corruption using hipsters for a political win?
3. also is it really true that everybody under middle class act like the Jerry Springer show? This is violent.... do innocent people get hit by chairs in the city? And do they litter?

I'm trying to understand all this underclassed chaos
BPLive:

Since you are showing your locations is Athens, Greece, allow me to offer some answers to your valid Questions from my personal perspective.

1- Hipsters don't steal cars, criminals do.

Hipster is a youth cultural and fashion / clothing choice which publicly proclaim membership in a music sub-culture.

Criminals, who may or may not dress and act like hipsters, mostly steal parked cars with no one around (no witnesses, as it were.) The problem with accusing hipsters with stealing cars is what (or how) is the thief going to do to turn the stolen car into cash? Kind of difficult to sell a stolen car in Portland, and Portland isn't known for it's chop-shop car stripping / parts salvage operations that much larger communities have.... Car theft rings, however, as professional criminals, do have the profit thing all worked out in advance, including how to dress as not to attract attention to themselves.

2- In the USA, citizens who are philosophically opposed to evolution and climate change have hit upon the discovery of a few scientist in one college, as absolute proof that ALL climate scientist are liars and ALL scientific published studies (even with peer review publications) is flat out wrong and fraudulent. 20 years of painstaking scientific research, with volumes of collaboration data, and hundreds of scientist from around the globe are now accused of a massive world wide conspiracy of intelligentsia to produce fraudulent data in support of a false theory. Really? And this world-wide conspiracy of educated professional scientist is just now coming to light because of a computer hacker? No whistle-blower? No guilt ridden confession of bad behavior? Oh, yes I forgot, political conservatives in the USA firmly believe in the Leftist Intelligentsia Cabal's famed (?) Code-Of-Silence. And it is so obvious to all these USA conservatives that the action of a small select few, provides the proof that the hundreds, and hundreds, of scientist are all part of this Leftist Intelligentsia Cabal.

Hipster is a cultural and fashion thing, politics should not be confused with a lifestyle. Quite a few young adults, who wear clothing in the hipsters style, are emphatically and adamantly believers in the arctic snow caps and glaciers melting is a bad thing for the entire planet Earth. These young people actually believe this with the fever of a religious movement; non-believers are of course evil sinners. Amazing, young adults proclaiming their independence and stubbornly wanting to think for themselves (correctly or incorrectly as maybe the case)... Should we stop the presses for this breaking news?

3- No, normal people do not act like the audiences on a TV show like the Jerry Springer show. It is a TV show. It's goal is to sell TV advertisements to as large of a TV audience as they can in order to make money. In real life, someone who throws a chair in a public meeting will get arrested, appear in court, and spend a few days in jail, or pay a fine.

I have never found any proof that because of social status / economic conditions / ethnic heritage / cultural heritage CAUSES a person to stop being normal and act as the audiences on that TV show does. I do know that anger, frustration, discrimination (social or economic), and stereotyping (including unjustified police profiling) will trigger a normal human reaction in self-defense and a demonstration of self-pride which may mimic some of the rudeness you may see on TV.

In my neighborhood there are several apartment complexes with large trash dumpsters for household trash. Homeless hungry people will climb inside and sort through the trash looking for scraps of food. Because of the Great Recession, there a now a lot of hungry homeless transients who arrived in Portland from other place and as the weather changes will move on to warmer places. There is a massive amount of litter on the ground caused by these dumpster diving homeless sorting through the garbage. It takes a lot of hunger to sort through a dumpster for food. And true hunger is a physical pain that will motivate humans to do a lot things they would normally not do. The wind spreads the trash around the entire neighborhood.

Phil
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
771 posts, read 1,308,491 times
Reputation: 420
With all due respect, I'm not referring to stealing cars. I'm referring to green extremists who have been trying since the 1970s to take away the car and force people to move back into the city from the suburbs to 'save the Earth.'

Back in the 70s, we were going to enter a new Ice Age so we'd need to huddle together in cities to survive. Now its huddling in the cities to survive global warming. Oh, and in the meantime, impose a lifestyle from the left that's just as bad as the religious agenda from the right.

The liberal community in places like Portland, San Francisco, Bezerkely (and other college towns scattered throughout the country), parts of the NE - don't live in the reality that most Americans live in. Now, there's nothing wrong with being liberal, OK? But don't try to impose your political viewpoints on 300+ million Americans, of whom millions disagree with the policies and simply want taxes low, the defense of the country taken care of (sensibly - I agree that the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are a waste, and we are rapidly approaching a situation with Iran where exchanges of nukes on both sides looks more likely every day), and the gov't should be ENTIRELY out of the business of legislating mores - that includes abortion, religion, your sexual orientation, etc. I don't care what you do with your body or with the bodies of others as long as its consensual, doesn't involve murder of innocents or abuse of underage children.

I don't *care* if you're gay. In fact, I think gays should have the right to experiencing the misery of legal divorce LOL. I don't care if you're a conservative Christian, either. But, in both cases, keep your lifestyle out of my face.

This libertarian bent also extends to the gov't, though, too. Don't tell people where and how to live. It actually makes sense to move to green energy sources and reduce our dependence on oil for transportation for national security reasons. But to do it for global warming is just crap. I'm sorry, those emails are damning, and global warming is a *political* agenda to shake down the developed world for billions - perhaps trillions - so the 3rd world can "develop" - which seems means they'll continue to overpopulate and stress the world ecosystem.

Its not our job as Americans to bring about a "fair" world. Life is not fair. What our job as Americans is is to keep ourselves secure as most of the rest of the world are not allies or friends of us. And that has nothing to do with W, or any other rightish politicians, or even the 'efforts' of Obama to 'remake' our image because he simply looks like a fool out there. Handing billions that will end up lining the pockets of 3rd world power brokers and doing nothing to reduce 'global warming' is just about the stupidiest idea ever.

As for the economic conditions comment, go live in some Section 8 housing for a while and you'll see how people game the system and claim 'discrimination' when they get caught.

As far as hunger goes, well, here in Sacramento there are fruit trees everywhere with fruit rotting on them because the owners don't want to take the trouble to pick them. In most cases, if you knock on the door and ask politely if you can pick the fruit, the owner will have no problem with it, because eventually its going to fall off and create a mess in the yard.

There's no reason for anyone to go hungry, I agree, but I'm not going to give a dollar to someone begging on the street that's going - most likely - to go spend it on alcohol or drugs.

I'm sorry, but the world I see as a libertarian is a much different world than liberals see, where they think its OK to use my money to take care of people who won't take care of themselves and throw the victim card out constantly to justify their irresponsible behavior.

Finally, um, the biggest threat to the Earth is massive overpopulation, not carbon itself - although the overpopulation causes the pollution in the first place.
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