Birth Rape? What the... . Are They Serious? (drug, years, early)

[pamelaBeurman]

Originally Posted by FinsterRufus

Thanks very much for clarifying. I'm very sorry to hear about your lost children, I can't imagine going through that, myself.

I am in total agreement with you regarding the "rape" issue. I think you're very courageous for dealing with people (and especially children) who've gone through that. Again, something I freely admit, I don't think I'd be able to do. I couldn't deal with all the heartbreak, and the anger towards the scum that would commit such an act against another human being. It does explain a lot about your reaction to certain posts.

I also sympathize towards the women who have had horrific experiences at the hands of bad doctors - I wish they'd found another way to express their anger over it, though. Calling it rape is wrong on many levels, and people might actually take their grievances more seriously should they pick a less controversial term for what they've been through. I think some people who have a genuine story that should be addressed are going to be scoffed at instead of recognized, all because that word was chosen - to be inflammatory on purpose, IMO.

So thanks, it was good of you to apologize - I'm sorry as well if I went at you a with a bit too much gusto - I tend to read CD late at night when I'm overtired and can be a little oversensitive to stimulus at that time.

You're right though, sometimes blunt and cold-hearted can appear to be the same thing on the internet, and while you're definitely the former, I don't think you're the latter.

I'm also learning to embrace my inner b***c! Lol

All joking aside, now you know why I took up farming.

Be well.

[NoExcuses]

When I first read the story about this, it reminded me of those late 20s, 30 something mothers who go into delivery for the first time expecting the fairytale perfect, it's all about 'me' labor and delivery; those who think the doctor is there to view the private parts of a woman in a vulnerable position.

Believe me, if you've ever viewed a delivery from the point of view of the doctor, I am absolutely certain that performing anything that can even be considered remotely as 'raping' the woman, is the farthest thing from his/her mind. It isn't a pretty sight.

It's sad that people have become so selfish that they would think of childbirth as any kind of rape by a doctor. He is being paid to deliver a baby. That's his job. He doesn't get up at two in the morning and go into the hospital for strangers so he can grope or do unnecessary things to a woman. His primary concern, and what he is getting paid for, is the safest delivery for both mother AND CHILD. It ISN'T to offer the mother the perfect fairytale experience she expected, although I am sure they would all prefer that; clean, neat and quick.

To think of any aspect of childbirth as rape astounds me. No matter what a doctor has to do to deliver a baby, he does out of necessity to ensure a living, breathing mother and child when it is all said and done.

And to those who think the woman should be consulted and methods should be discussed have never been in the throes of childbirth and have a complication arise unexpectedly.

[FinsterRufus]

Originally Posted by NoExcuses

When I first read the story about this, it reminded me of those late 20s, 30 something mothers who go into delivery for the first time expecting the fairytale perfect, it's all about 'me' labor and delivery; those who think the doctor is there to view the private parts of a woman in a vulnerable position.

Believe me, if you've ever viewed a delivery from the point of view of the doctor, I am absolutely certain that performing anything that can even be considered remotely as 'raping' the woman, is the farthest thing from his/her mind. It isn't a pretty sight.

It's sad that people have become so selfish that they would think of childbirth as any kind of rape by a doctor. He is being paid to deliver a baby. That's his job. He doesn't get up at two in the morning and go into the hospital for strangers so he can grope or do unnecessary things to a woman. His primary concern, and what he is getting paid for, is the safest delivery for both mother AND CHILD. It ISN'T to offer the mother the perfect fairytale experience she expected, although I am sure they would all prefer that; clean, neat and quick.

To think of any aspect of childbirth as rape astounds me. No matter what a doctor has to do to deliver a baby, he does out of necessity to ensure a living, breathing mother and child when it is all said and done.

And to those who think the woman should be consulted and methods should be discussed have never been in the throes of childbirth and have a complication arise unexpectedly.

While I agree with the rest of your post in theory, to say a woman should not even be consulted should a complication arise is going way too extreme in the other direction, IMO. You are basically relegating the status of a woman giving birth to that of a minor child who has zero say in what goes on in their medical affairs.

And I say in theory because: the reality is that not all doctors are competent and primarily concerned about the woman and child's health. They may be a rarity but some doctors are overbearing, self important ego maniacs who are concerned more about serving their own interests than those of their patients. Doctors are not infallible, perfect human beings who make the right decision, especially under pressure, in every situation. To say that a woman, who by her very nature intuitively understands childbirth and has been doing it without medical intervention since the invention of childbirth should not even be consulted about methods of emergency delivery because they are all presumed incompetent to make decisions while in the throes of childbirth is ridiculous.

I would say that in 99% of emergency scenarios, the mother is likely to go along with the doctor's recommendations. But to put forward that they should not even be given the opportunity to discuss the situation with their doctor is relegating women's rights as far as childbirth back to the 50's, where women were basically knocked unconscious and were kept ignorant of the entire child birthing process, and went along with the medical establishment, never questioning their authority.

I understand that there may be little time for discussion in some situations, but to think that the woman should be left ignorant as to the procedures she may have to endure is probably the type of attitude that contributes to this whole "birth rape" movement in the first place.

[NoExcuses]

I would much rather trust the judgement of a qualified doctor than a woman half out of her mind in childbirth and so drugged up she can't feel much or think too well.

We will continue to disagree on this so there is no point beating it to death.

[FinsterRufus]

Originally Posted by NoExcuses

I would much rather trust the judgement of a qualified doctor than a woman half out of her mind in childbirth and so drugged up she can't feel much or think too well.

We will continue to disagree on this so there is no point beating it to death.

That's fine, but I don't see why the poor woman is not to be consulted at all.

You can bet I would have screamed blue bloody murder had they taken me in to my emergency c-section without consulting me first. Not all women are incompetent just because they're in labor, and being given labor drugs doesn't necessarily mean you can't think straight.

Ok, done beating now. Carry on.

[Neverwhere_71]

OK, I had quite an experience having my daughter. She was an undiagnosed breech presentation which meant days of painful labour and absolutely no drugs at all thanks(?) mostly to a team of midwives with their heads anywhere but on the planet at the time.

I had to have an Emergency C-Section after finding that the umbilical cord had caught around her neck and her heart rate had gone right down I was terrified!

Even though I went through that, I would not even suggest it was anything like rape!! I was all for the team of surgeons to do what they HAD to do. In such a situation I know and accpet that the doctors have to take charge of what's happening, they are the experts.

I wanted a natural birth but that wasn't to be. The most important thing was my daughter being brought into this world alive.

[Akama13]

Originally Posted by Aconite

The easiest way to dilute any reaction to a real horror is to label everything a horror. When everyone who gets even a bit cross is called Hitler, the real one just becomes a silly man with a goofy moustache. Likewise, when we call everything unpleasant "rape", we needn't, as a society, be outraged by the actual occurrence.

It is slightly disturbing to call an act that causes tremendous trauma, namely abusing a woman in a helpless position ( since you take offense to the word rape) "inconvenience".

It is not an inconvenience, it is a criminal act. Inserting anything into a person when they say "no" is abuse, just to give one example. We're not talking about routine exams everyone has consented to, you know, the medical useless "let's check for progress" exams.

[Akama13]

Originally Posted by NoExcuses

I would much rather trust the judgement of a qualified doctor than a woman half out of her mind in childbirth and so drugged up she can't feel much or think too well.

We will continue to disagree on this so there is no point beating it to death.

You might consider the possibility that not everyone is drugged up and doctors aren't gods in white. A no is a no. Always. Pain during childbirth does not lead to legal incompetence.

[jasper12]

Sometimes, things have to happen fast. I had a breech baby once, and within minutes of walking into the hospital was buck naked on an operating table, with tons of people running aournd. It was surreal to me, because it happened so fast. I would have preferred to have a blanket or sheet, for some modesty, and I was freezing cold, but it seems like I was being prepped for surgery so fast, that no one really cared or noticed...Okay, I lived through it...20 minutes later, I had a baby, and then was tucked into a warm bed for a long, well deserved nap!

[suzy_q2010]

Originally Posted by Akama13

It is slightly disturbing to call an act that causes tremendous trauma, namely abusing a woman in a helpless position ( since you take offense to the word rape) "inconvenience".

The procedures being discussed are those that the vast number of patients do not consider abusive. They are not "acts that cause a tremendous trauma." The passage of a fetus through the birth canal can sometimes cause significant vaginal trauma. That does not make the measures needed to repair that trauma abusive.

It is not an inconvenience, it is a criminal act. Inserting anything into a person when they say "no" is abuse, just to give one example. We're not talking about routine exams everyone has consented to, you know, the medical useless "let's check for progress" exams.

But we are talking about routine procedures to which most people readily give consent. They are frequently unpleasant and sometimes painful, but it is not abuse. And the real topic of the thread has been hijacked, and that is the issue of refusing exams out of a distorted sense of modesty that says no - one - but -my - husband - shall - see - my - private - parts - deliver - the - baby - but - don't - look - or - touch - while - you - do - it. Or the poster who feels that a woman's breasts should not be seen by the surgeon doing cardiac bypass surgery.

How do you propose to monitor the progress of labor without doing those "medical useless" exams?