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Old 06-26-2009, 07:14 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
21,108 posts, read 18,929,782 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinolala View Post
With so many people not wanting these children, what do you think would become of the chldren if abortion weren't an option? I can't imagine that an unwanted child would have a very good life. You might say adoption is a good option. But for those people who want adopt, it's a very complicated and expensive process. There are children in the Dept of Family Services in my state that are in their teens, and who have never been adopted. Mainly because they're looked at as "damaged" at this point. Some are children of color that Whites don't want. They'd rather fly to China or Romania than adopt a black baby 20 miles from their house. The idea of abortion for convenience isn't a nice idea, but if the mother doesn't want her baby that badly, it may be the only option for her. Sure, using birth control would be the best option. But there will always be people who fail to use it or don't use it regularly. Just like there will always be people who get divorced, become drug addicts, cheat on their spouses, etc. Humans aren't perfect.
To me, this argument says to those "damaged" kids, "Too bad you weren't aborted. If you were never born, life would have been better for everyone." Abortion isn't black-and-white for me either, but I can't jump the gap from "this kid will probably never be adopted" to "aborting him is the kind thing to do."
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Old 06-26-2009, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
1,137 posts, read 1,755,681 times
Reputation: 1097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinolala View Post
With so many people not wanting these children, what do you think would become of the chldren if abortion weren't an option? I can't imagine that an unwanted child would have a very good life. You might say adoption is a good option. But for those people who want adopt, it's a very complicated and expensive process. There are children in the Dept of Family Services in my state that are in their teens, and who have never been adopted. Mainly because they're looked at as "damaged" at this point. Some are children of color that Whites don't want. They'd rather fly to China or Romania than adopt a black baby 20 miles from their house. The idea of abortion for convenience isn't a nice idea, but if the mother doesn't want her baby that badly, it may be the only option for her. Sure, using birth control would be the best option. But there will always be people who fail to use it or don't use it regularly. Just like there will always be people who get divorced, become drug addicts, cheat on their spouses, etc. Humans aren't perfect.
I agree, no one is perfect. I don't think anyone on this thread so far has indicated that is what we are looking for. But when you consider that we do have legal abortion in this country and there are still so many unwanted, abused and murdered children, how can anyone feel abortion has solved these problems?

Yes, adoption is a lengthy, expensive process. Our lawmakers could change that but so far, no one has given it the attention it needs. I know very well how hard the process is since my husband and I are going through it now. We are hoping for a special needs child but getting one of any color seems to be an almost impossible dream.

Birth control would be the best option, like you said. There are so many options available. But our society doesn't push these options as much as abortion. Responsibility is not the primary idea taught to young kids. Peer pressure and hollywood seem to rule how a lot of people live their lives. Now, this is my opinion, of course, but look at any magazine in the store or T.V. or movies. The lives of promiscuous people and doing what you want with your life is the primary ideal pushed by our society. If we would change the focus to responsibility, I think a lot of unwanted children would never be conceived.
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:27 AM
 
Location: 95468
1,344 posts, read 1,432,930 times
Reputation: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_Thumb View Post
When pro-life folk say life is precious, they most often mean... "all innocent life is precious". Most of them don't give a rat's #ss about violent criminals. Hence, that is why most are pro-capital punishment.

I am pro-choice, but it amazes me how many fellow pro-choicers can not get their head out of their #ss, and understand a pro-lifer's logic.
1. They attribute significance to the life of the fetus, and consider it innocent and significant... perhaps, as significant as a developed baby (I think most of us feel the life of a developed baby is more significant that a criminal.).

2. Since they feel that the life of a fetus is similar to that as a fully-developed baby... obviously, some may be at odds with an abortionist. Most probably see the abortionist as a murderer even though he is not one lawfully. Think about it.

3. Many see the provision of medical abortions through surgical or pharmaceutical means as genocide. More than 50 million abortions have occurred since Roe vs Wade. To some, this may be horrifying.


I am not justifying what happened. For gosh sake, I am pro-choice, but sheesh... things are not black or white.
The same disgust that you feel for this person killing an abortionist. That is probably similar to the disgust that pro-life people feel with abortions.
As for partial-birth abortions. That's a very difficult subject. I am personally against them unless the mother's life is in danger. After the third-trimester, the fetus is almost fully developed. But I am not sure if I like legislation getting in the way of a physician's autonomy with their patients. At the moment, there really is no good answers in preventing frivolous partial-birth abortions (which I find amoral) from happening.
I want to congratulate you for doing something totally unique. You are the first member of the left that's been able to describe the right in a reasonably coherent way. And just as impressive you appear to have a real understanding of some of the flaws of your own side.
Once again, a sincere thank you.
Bob
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:00 AM
 
2,465 posts, read 3,051,616 times
Reputation: 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by highway29south View Post
I agree, no one is perfect. I don't think anyone on this thread so far has indicated that is what we are looking for. But when you consider that we do have legal abortion in this country and there are still so many unwanted, abused and murdered children, how can anyone feel abortion has solved these problems?

Yes, adoption is a lengthy, expensive process. Our lawmakers could change that but so far, no one has given it the attention it needs. I know very well how hard the process is since my husband and I are going through it now. We are hoping for a special needs child but getting one of any color seems to be an almost impossible dream.

Birth control would be the best option, like you said. There are so many options available. But our society doesn't push these options as much as abortion. Responsibility is not the primary idea taught to young kids. Peer pressure and hollywood seem to rule how a lot of people live their lives. Now, this is my opinion, of course, but look at any magazine in the store or T.V. or movies. The lives of promiscuous people and doing what you want with your life is the primary ideal pushed by our society. If we would change the focus to responsibility, I think a lot of unwanted children would never be conceived.
I agree that there are way to many unwanted, abused and murdered children in this country. But just think how many more there would be if abortion was not available.

Even if every person in this country that wanted kids adopted one of these children, there still wouldn't be enough homes avalable to take them all in. Basically all of us who want to have children would have to stop having our own so that we would have the space and money to take in someone elses unwanted, and abused child/ren.

If you really want to see abortions decrease greatly, then we all should work together to help better educate our youth. We all need to stop making sex sound so nonchalant and eh! it's just human nature to want to have sex at young ages and before your married. We need to ban together and get on actors, actresses, screen writers, and advertisers who sell sex, or sell their products with sex. This country has turned into an over sexed nation and there really is no need for it. Back in the days people were critizied for being an over sexed gigilo, or wh*re. Now we seem to embrace their behavior and give them kudos for expressing their sexuality.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
1,137 posts, read 1,755,681 times
Reputation: 1097
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
I agree that there are way to many unwanted, abused and murdered children in this country. But just think how many more there would be if abortion was not available.

Even if every person in this country that wanted kids adopted one of these children, there still wouldn't be enough homes avalable to take them all in. Basically all of us who want to have children would have to stop having our own so that we would have the space and money to take in someone elses unwanted, and abused child/ren.

If you really want to see abortions decrease greatly, then we all should work together to help better educate our youth. We all need to stop making sex sound so nonchalant and eh! it's just human nature to want to have sex at young ages and before your married. We need to ban together and get on actors, actresses, screen writers, and advertisers who sell sex, or sell their products with sex. This country has turned into an over sexed nation and there really is no need for it. Back in the days people were critizied for being an over sexed gigilo, or wh*re. Now we seem to embrace their behavior and give them kudos for expressing their sexuality.
It is all about responsibility. Instead of making an innocent life pay for our "whatever" attitudes, we should be responsible in the first place. Our society needs to stop paying so much attention to hollywood and what everyone else is doing and focus instead on realizing the consequences of our own behavior, on ourselves and those in our lives. Because no matter how you look at it, we need to start caring about each other and being responsible for our own behavior plays into that.
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:16 AM
 
2,465 posts, read 3,051,616 times
Reputation: 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by highway29south View Post
It is all about responsibility. Instead of making an innocent life pay for our "whatever" attitudes, we should be responsible in the first place. Our society needs to stop paying so much attention to hollywood and what everyone else is doing and focus instead on realizing the consequences of our own behavior, on ourselves and those in our lives. Because no matter how you look at it, we need to start caring about each other and being responsible for our own behavior plays into that.
I agree that it's all about responsibility. But how does a person learn responsibilty when it is not shown or taught in the first place? People have taken a "whatever" attitude because that is the attitude we see all of the time. It's in magazines, on billboards, on television, in movies and on the radio. No matter how hard we try we cannot escape sex. It's in our faces every day. Even the clothes in shopping malls/centers exude sex. Kids grow up with sex all over the place as it's no longer discreet and something that goes on between two people who truely love each other behind close doors.

Yes, sex is a natural act and just about everyone in the world is doing it, but they shouldn't be doing it in the open and with whom ever just because it's a natural thing. We are becoming more and more like animals when it comes to sex. Heck I think there are probably more animals who choose a lifetime mate over humans.

Yes there are measures a person can take to keep from getting pregnant, like the use of Birth Control. A person who uses BC is being responsible, but we all know that BC is not 100% effective. Plus I think that readily available BC only helps promote promiscuity. A promiscuis person stands a greater chance of becoming pregnant with or without BC. Don't get me wrong I am all for BC, but I am also for abstinance as well. That is what we should really be teaching our children and we start that teaching by example. We should be promoting sex as something that goes on between two people who really love each other and not just something you do on a whim with whoever is in your sights.
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Old 06-26-2009, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
1,137 posts, read 1,755,681 times
Reputation: 1097
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoquilter View Post
I agree that it's all about responsibility. But how does a person learn responsibilty when it is not shown or taught in the first place? People have taken a "whatever" attitude because that is the attitude we see all of the time. It's in magazines, on billboards, on television, in movies and on the radio. No matter how hard we try we cannot escape sex. It's in our faces every day. Even the clothes in shopping malls/centers exude sex. Kids grow up with sex all over the place as it's no longer discreet and something that goes on between two people who truely love each other behind close doors.

Yes, sex is a natural act and just about everyone in the world is doing it, but they shouldn't be doing it in the open and with whom ever just because it's a natural thing. We are becoming more and more like animals when it comes to sex. Heck I think there are probably more animals who choose a lifetime mate over humans.

Yes there are measures a person can take to keep from getting pregnant, like the use of Birth Control. A person who uses BC is being responsible, but we all know that BC is not 100% effective. Plus I think that readily available BC only helps promote promiscuity. A promiscuis person stands a greater chance of becoming pregnant with or without BC. Don't get me wrong I am all for BC, but I am also for abstinance as well. That is what we should really be teaching our children and we start that teaching by example. We should be promoting sex as something that goes on between two people who really love each other and not just something you do on a whim with whoever is in your sights.
Absolutely! Abstinence is the primary goal.

I agree that not everyone learns responsibility from home. But if our society promoted it, then at least everyone would have a shot!
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:22 PM
 
Location: chicagoland
1,636 posts, read 2,629,907 times
Reputation: 1042
I'd like to hear an "anti abortion" person state the points/arguments FOR abortion and a "pro lifer" do the same for the other.

You can't make a stand unless you have something to stand against. And many people make the choice without thoroughly investigating the other.

I'm a hardcore pro lifer for ME. For everyone else in the world (since there is more than just me) you should have the same choice as I.

I just have a problem with women not getting ALL the info they need to make this choice.

I do believe that many clinics/mds require that the woman see the ultrasound and come back the next day/sleep on it and THEN make the decision.

I don't think it should be an argument for anyone when it comes to it being "ok" for a woman who was raped or who might die if she carries her baby if before a certain amount of time.

If a baby can live outside of womb (proven at I believe 21 weeks 6 days) it seems to be a question of murder for some. I didn't say me...........
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:40 PM
 
9,689 posts, read 6,930,675 times
Reputation: 5977
Quote:
Originally Posted by highway29south View Post
Absolutely! Abstinence is the primary goal.

I agree that not everyone learns responsibility from home. But if our society promoted it, then at least everyone would have a shot!
highway, hardly anyone is ever gonna abstain. it just won't happen. the trouble with responsibility is just what you just said, so many people are not. so many people just don't care. you can lead the horse to water but can't make them drink. I think the reason we don't promote more education is that tax payers do not want to fund it. many families do not want their kids learning about sex from the schools or learning about it period.
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Old 06-29-2009, 10:41 PM
 
2,141 posts, read 5,361,700 times
Reputation: 1153
Quote:
Originally Posted by highway29south View Post
I agree, no one is perfect. I don't think anyone on this thread so far has indicated that is what we are looking for. But when you consider that we do have legal abortion in this country and there are still so many unwanted, abused and murdered children, how can anyone feel abortion has solved these problems?

Yes, adoption is a lengthy, expensive process. Our lawmakers could change that but so far, no one has given it the attention it needs. I know very well how hard the process is since my husband and I are going through it now. We are hoping for a special needs child but getting one of any color seems to be an almost impossible dream.

Birth control would be the best option, like you said. There are so many options available. But our society doesn't push these options as much as abortion. Responsibility is not the primary idea taught to young kids. Peer pressure and hollywood seem to rule how a lot of people live their lives. Now, this is my opinion, of course, but look at any magazine in the store or T.V. or movies. The lives of promiscuous people and doing what you want with your life is the primary ideal pushed by our society. If we would change the focus to responsibility, I think a lot of unwanted children would never be conceived.
I have yet to see a television commercial or magazine ad for abortions. I have never seen Pro Choice advocates picketing outside of a birth class or outside of a Babys "R Us. Who is pushing abortion? It's legal, it's there and if someone wants one, they will find a hospital or clinic to perform one. Abortion doesn't need to be pushed. We could use more pushing of birth control though. Many people still don't seem to have that down.

Last edited by Chinolala; 06-29-2009 at 10:50 PM..
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