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View Poll Results: Should the mountain lion have been killed?
Yes 16 32.00%
No 5 10.00%
It should have been relocated, not killed. 29 58.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-14-2011, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
1,591 posts, read 2,202,832 times
Reputation: 777

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I think that you can be an animal lover as I am and be realistic at the same time.
Then again some don't look at what could happen and the resulting lawsuits that the taxpayers would have to pay for.
Then again, it's just money.

 
Old 08-14-2011, 02:45 PM
 
1,229 posts, read 2,042,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wretched wrench View Post
And, there is the key to the problem. I used to see only the hindquarters and tail of a cat. They were afraid of humans, because they were hunted.

Now, since they are no longer hunted, the predator/prey relationship is reversed. We are prey, and they see us as below them on the food chain.
I researched this and according to the Arizona Fish & Game and the entire U.S. Fish & Wildlife services, what you stated above is NOT accurate.

The biological relationship of humans vs. mountain lions does not work that way. It gets too involved but suffice it to say that biologists disagree with your statements.

According to the stats, mountain lion attacks occur at roughly the same rate in states where hunting is allowed. The California State Department of Fish and Game has killed about 85 cougars per year since 1990. An additional 100 per year are killed by private citizens under special permits granted to people whose livestock or pets are threatened by cougars. An additional 20 cougars are killed per year by vehicles on the roadway. That's 200 cougars killed per year. From 1890 - 1963, there was on average 200 cougars reported killed per year.

200 cougars killed per year from 1990 - 2010
200 cougars killed per year from 1890 - 1963


Here is where the stats prove the fear of mountain lions is man-made emotionalism and not based on facts.


Over 327 people have been killed by domestic dogs between 1979 and 1988. This means that your family dog or your neighbor's dog has killed 15 times more people in just 11 years than mountain lions have killed in 120 years.

1979-1988 (11 years) = 327 human deaths caused by domestic dogs
1890-2004 (114 years) = 20 human deaths caused by mountain lions

So that means the dog next door is more deadlier and you should shoot and kill your neighbors dog. Absurd? Of course. But so is the argument that mountain lions need to be killed once they come near humans.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Southern Yavapai County
1,314 posts, read 1,484,161 times
Reputation: 648
I deal with wild animals in the wild differently than in my yard. Rats, rattlers, everything. They have their space, I have mine.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
1,591 posts, read 2,202,832 times
Reputation: 777
And I have given neighbors fair warning about their vicious dogs in the past, usually with the gun sited right on them so they knew I meant business.
I told one neighbor down in SE AZ that attacked my father-in-laws pup that if I saw his dog on the run and on our property again I would kill it.
He fenced the dogs in, I think he had 4 at the time.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
1,348 posts, read 2,537,524 times
Reputation: 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by DellNec View Post

1979-1988 (11 years) = 327 human deaths caused by domestic dogs
1890-2004 (114 years) = 20 human deaths caused by mountain lions

So that means the dog next door is more deadlier and you should shoot and kill your neighbors dog. Absurd? Of course. But so is the argument that mountain lions need to be killed once they come near humans.
Great research and probably very true, except that there are probably 10,000 times as many dogs around as there are mountain lions. So, on a percentage basis, mountain lions are far deadlier than the average doggy.

All of that aside, the article stated that the reason for killing the mountain lion was to avoid a future lawsuit if the lion later attacked someone or someone's pet after being released by Game and Fish.
 
Old 08-14-2011, 10:51 PM
 
1,229 posts, read 2,042,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriansPerspective View Post
So, on a percentage basis, mountain lions are far deadlier than the average doggy.
That is a non sequitur. Of course there are more dogs than mountain lions but the mountain lion population is a constant with very slight variables, as they are require vast territories and will kill other mountain lions entering into their territory. They keep their own numbers in check and have done so for thousands of years without human intervention.

The reality of it is that mountain lions rarely kill a human being and statistically that is proven by science. With ZERO confirmed deaths in Arizona and only 20 deaths in 115 years for both the U.S. and Canada, the odds of someone being killed by a mountain lion are almost zero vs. a much better chance of you being killed by your neighbors dog (30+ deaths per year in USA alone).


Quote:
Originally Posted by BriansPerspective View Post
All of that aside, the article stated that the reason for killing the mountain lion was to avoid a future lawsuit if the lion later attacked someone or someone's pet after being released by Game and Fish.
The Fish & Game have a set protocol. If that protocol was changed to tranquilize and relocate (as it is in other states), filing a lawsuit against them and having it go to trial would be very slim to none.

Look at Wyoming F&G, their protocol is to tranquilize and relocate:

Officials tranquilize, relocate central Casper mountain lion


**I see my math was off in regards to the years 1979 - 1988, I should have stated 9 years, not 11 years. - sorry**

Last edited by DellNec; 08-14-2011 at 11:09 PM..
 
Old 08-15-2011, 12:49 PM
 
1,229 posts, read 2,042,456 times
Reputation: 602
As it stands right now, 60% are against the killing and 40% were for the killing. As stated, this issue is a "hot one". I can understand on how people want to shoot first and ask questions later. Especially because of the mountain lions ability to attack and kill a human being pretty easily. It is a killing machine and does so very efficiently.

The best way to approach this issue is try to be EMOTION FREE. In other words, look at is logically and DON'T let fear make your decision, as it will cloud your judgment. Did you know that as high as 90% of our decisions as human beings are made because of our fears?

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports that about 150+ human fatalities occur due to deer vs. vehicle accidents and over 10,000 personal injuries, every year. It is a proven fact that when mountain lion populations are decimated due to hunting, the amount of people who die in deer vs. vehicle accidents climbs astronomically. As a lion will kill 1 deer every 9-14 days. Also, Lyme and all other deer tick-borne diseases grow tremendously.

Let's say that because of them shooting that mountain lion, we now have a deer surge in that area, causing a deer vs. car accident which results in the death of a family of four. You now have four people who died because of that mountain lion was killed. Yes, this is a hypothetical but very plausible as the facts are facts:

There has been ZERO mountain lion fatalities in the state of Arizona in the past 120 years. There was only 20 fatalities in the entire U.S. & Canada in the past 114 years. Yet, 30+ people a year are killed by domestic dogs and 150 per year are killed in deer vs. vehicle accidents. This shows that OUR FEAR is driving this killing decision and not logic & facts.

Last edited by DellNec; 08-15-2011 at 12:59 PM..
 
Old 08-15-2011, 01:09 PM
 
533 posts, read 816,063 times
Reputation: 350
You did factor in the impact on livestock vs humans, right? It's not all about how many people get hurt. Mountain lions aren't hunting people, they're hunting livestock and pets. Dogs, cats, sheep, goats, horses, etc. If a human gets in the wrong place at the wrong time then they might become a statistic. However, when the mountain lions get onto the ranches or into developments with pets, the livestock/pets are hunted.

Whether this one needed to be killed or tranquilized/relocated, I don't know, I'm not an expert on the efficacies of relocation. I defer to those who do it for a living.

As for killing mountain lions around properties--having an uncle who runs a ranch and has had to deal with mountain lions repeatedly, before and after they've run amok in the corrals and pens--I understand why they have to be killed sometimes. They're very territorial and once they've staked out a territory they're not going to let it go. If you relocate to another territory that is already claimed then that leads to different issues (I've heard and it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but again I'm not an expert).

So it was put down. Was it the best decision? I don't know. Was it a bad decision? No. People can scream and yell all they want, until it's their pet or kid that's hurt, then they demand to know why the horrible beast wasn't killed in the first place. It's a vicious circle. Talk to the farmers and ranchers and ask them if they have huge issue with putting down a mountain lion. I'd take their opinion well ahead of the average town-dweller who likes to get offended or spew bile for the sake of pointing the finger at somebody else, and without doing objective due diligence.
 
Old 08-15-2011, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Prescott, AZ
1,591 posts, read 2,202,832 times
Reputation: 777
And the decision is not left to us, it's a Fish and Game decision or somebody like a rancher that just does not want them around.
Season or not, legal to shoot or not, they do get shot by others in this state on a regular basis.
In this case you can post all the statistics you want but it's not going to change the fact that they get shot on a regular basis.
I would venture to say that my nephew has shot more or as many of them as anyone ever has working for Fish and Game all these years as it's his job.
 
Old 08-15-2011, 03:18 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
6,356 posts, read 10,560,365 times
Reputation: 7597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esenjay View Post
Talk to the farmers and ranchers and ask them if they have huge issue with putting down a mountain lion. I'd take their opinion well ahead of the average town-dweller who likes to get offended or spew bile for the sake of pointing the finger at somebody else, and without doing objective due diligence.
I certainly would NOT take the opinion of farmers and ranchers on whether killing a mountain lion is justified. Ranchers couldn't care less about wildlife, all they care about is money. In fact, they generally hate wildlife because it's easier to kill off the wildlife than god-forbid lose one of their own animals that will most likely soon be butchered anyway.

On the other hand, Fish and Game generally knows what they're doing. Their livelyhood depends more on protecting wildlife rather than decimating it. If they killed the mountain lion, I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, even though the killing one of those rare and beautiful animals saddens me greatly.
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