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Old 01-11-2012, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
4,651 posts, read 6,019,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic Toast View Post
If memory serves, Barry rarely got red zone touches especially later in his career. Even if that is not the case, he lost a ton of yards outside the red zone. That was just the nature of his running style coupled with the terrible O-line.
Barry lost plenty of yards on his own all over the field. He thought the risk of running backwards at times was worth the possible gain. His career and stats would agree. Your assessment is correct.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
9,371 posts, read 17,494,909 times
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Quote:
Plenty of QB's never won a title. And that doesn't automatically put Favre above them, especially considering that not only Favre only won 1, but he didn't even play that great in the Superbowl.
Yup, SB titles don't always dictate the quality of a QB, Aikman is living proof of that. But since you like tossing stats out there to support Vick and McNabb you might as well acknowledge all of them.

Quote:
Either you have a selective memory, or you conveniently ignored the part where I mentioned the Falcons won at Lambeau in January 2003. 27-7 in fact. A game where Vick, Warrick Dunn, and T.J. Duckett ran the ball down the Packers' throats all game. A game where Favre went 20-42 and threw 2 picks.
Exactly, Vick "ran" the ball down their throats, his ability as a QB (passing, accuracy, reading, leading) is nowhere near Favre. That's WHY he runs as often as he does. He's not as equipped as a passing QB to work his way out of a broken play or improvise.

Quote:
You lost all credibility with your comment that I bolded. Tony Romo has won 1 playoff game in his entire career and he is best known for his blunder in Seattle in the '06 playoffs. McNabb getting to the NFC title game 4 years in a row ALONE puts him above Romo. Never mind the fact that he led the Eagles to the Superbowl with Owens missing 4 games, including the 2 playoff games prior to the Superbowl. In those 2 playoff games, McNabb went 38/59(64.4%), 466 yards, 4 touchdowns, and not a single INT.
McNabb still couldn't win when it really counted, and seeing how football is a team sport, he had a better defense to help him out than Romo. I won't make excuses for Romo because for one reason or other he's a choker, but McNabb's limited success was less about him and more about the defense.

Quote:
Credit McNabb with making smart plays and doing a lot with minimum help at wideout. Aside from Owens, who did he have? James "Butterfingers" Thrash and Todd "I'm too big of a pu**y to take a hit" Pinkston. He gets a credible receiver in DeSean Jackson and the Eagles go to the NFC title game as the #6 seed. And even then, there was no one outside of Jackson. They had to use Westbrook as a receiver because they were so shallow at wideout. Jackson led the team with 62 receptions in 2008. Westbrook was second with 54.
McNabb had Desean Jackson the year he blew the Wildcard playoff game in a loss to Dallas. Lot of good it did him. He also had Santana Moss in Washington, lot of good that did him. McNabb was benched halfway through the season.

It's funny how you'll talk up and defend McNabb but go out of your way to try and discredit Favre. I'm not a Green Bay fan or a Favre fan, but to say he's overrated sounds more like someone with an agenda or hatred. I'm not saying you are because I don't know who you are a fan of or who you aren't, but the perception is leaning that way. Same as if someone says that Tom Brady sucks. You can hate him all you want, but for someone to imply he sucks or isn't a top tier QB they are letting their bias and emotion overrule logic. It seems the same thing is taking place with your "thing" against Favre.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:16 PM
 
Location: southwestern USA
1,791 posts, read 1,669,124 times
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We moved to Wisconsin in 1956-----I have been a pack fan since----there is no greater franchise in the nfl.

Was Brett overrated?? Perhaps in the sense that he won only one superbowl with all the outstanding talent that the Packers had in his 16 years. Pack fans, I believe, generally feel that Bretts tendency to be a gun slinger and being prone to key interceptions, may have caused the team a shot at another title or two.

That being said, he was fun to watch---you were never out a game with him. He could throw you right of some games, but yikes you were never out of it with him either.

I wish Brett maybe hadnt thrown caution to the wind so much during his career----but I guess, if he didnt, he wouldnt have been Brett Favre.

I would certainly rank him the top 10 of all time nfl qbs------and despite the gastritis he caused us on occasions, when a couple more years pass by to cool off the rancor caused by his ill fated departure, Brett will return a hero to Green Bay and his name will be enshrined on the Packer wall of fame----and yes Brett---you are indeed, one of the packer greats.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Idaho
475 posts, read 429,573 times
Reputation: 933
To be fair, if Rodgers played at all when defenses were actually allowed to cover WRs without drawing a flag, he would have thrown quite a few more INTs then he has.

But yes, Favre is overrated. However, how many times in his career could you look at a game and say they were out of it? Very rarely, because he was the QB. I don't know if his streak of starts will ever be broken.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,187 posts, read 21,748,974 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by WakaFlocka View Post
I didn't want to put this in the Aaron Rodgers thread because I'm not comparing him to Rodgers. I just want to show how overrated Favre is.


Career INTs
336


INTs per season
16.8


Seasons with more than 20 INTs
6


# of seasons with more INTs than TDs
4


# of seasons with completion % under 60%
5
----------------------------------------------------------------
Favre is the all-time INT leader with 336. If you take away his last 3 seasons, he's still the all-time leader. He regularly made poor decisions with the football and put his receivers at risk, something Greg Jennings mentioned. Now just to compare him with some other all-time great QB's from his generation:


Career INTs
Favre- 336
Marino- 252
Elway- 226
Manning- 198
Aikman- 141
Montana- 139
Brady- 115
Young- 107


INTs per season
Favre- 16.8
Manning- 15.2
Marino- 14.8
Elway- 14.1
Aikman- 11.8
Brady- 10.5
Montana- 8.7
Young- 7.1


Pass attempts per INT
Brady- 46.3
Montana- 38.8
Young- 38.8
Manning- 36.4
Aikman- 33.4
Marino- 33.2
Elway- 32.1
Favre- 30.3


Seasons with more than 20 INTs
Favre- 6
Marino- 4
Manning- 2
Elway- 1
Aikman- 0
Montana- 0
Brady- 0
Young- 0


# of seasons with more INTs than TDs
Favre- 4
Elway- 4
Aikman- 4
Marino- 1
Manning- 1
Young- 1
Montana- 0
Brady- 0


# of seasons with completion % under 60%
Elway- 12
Marino- 12
Aikman- 6
Favre- 5
Young- 2
Montana- 2
Manning- 1
Brady- 0
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When compared even to QB's of his generation, Favre is nothing special. He made poor decisions with the ball, threw INTs like they were lollipops, and cost his team games. He played hard and even when injured, but that's all I remember him for. Outside of Green Bay, he's remembered for his games streak, not for the Superbowl he won in the 1996 season.

As for the stats that included number of seasons, I did not include seasons where half the season or less was played by the player. I didn't want to give Favre an advantage or disadvantage. The stats show that when compared to other great QB's in his time, Favre did not do much. INTs will cost you games, even if you throw a lot of TDs.
I'm not a Favre fan, but the guy still threw over 500 TDs and darn close to 72,000 yards in pass completions. Yeah, he may have thrown 336 interceptions, but out of how many total career throws? Brett has the most interceptions because he threw the ball so damn much. Perhaps too much, but still.

His record is impressive, and besides, no QB intentionally throws an interception. Sure, sometimes the interception was the result of a bad play on the QBs part, but sometimes it is on the receiver or even the defensive team who was able to read the play and out-run the receiver to the ball.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:58 PM
 
1,833 posts, read 2,082,085 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68 View Post
Yup, SB titles don't always dictate the quality of a QB, Aikman is living proof of that. But since you like tossing stats out there to support Vick and McNabb you might as well acknowledge all of them.

Then I guess I should acknowledge every player that's every played then.


Quote:
Exactly, Vick "ran" the ball down their throats, his ability as a QB (passing, accuracy, reading, leading) is nowhere near Favre. That's WHY he runs as often as he does. He's not as equipped as a passing QB to work his way out of a broken play or improvise.

And yet when I mentioned how he went to Lambeau in a January playoff game and stuck it to Green Bay, you conveniently ignored it.


Quote:
McNabb still couldn't win when it really counted, and seeing how football is a team sport, he had a better defense to help him out than Romo. I won't make excuses for Romo because for one reason or other he's a choker, but McNabb's limited success was less about him and more about the defense.

You can use that argument for probably 95% of players, that they couldn't win when it counted. You lost any credibility you had when you said McNabb is on the same level as Romo. And when I called you out on it and proved how he was clearly better, you respond with "McNabb still couldn't win when it really counted". You know you're wrong.


Quote:
McNabb had Desean Jackson the year he blew the Wildcard playoff game in a loss to Dallas. Lot of good it did him. He also had Santana Moss in Washington, lot of good that did him. McNabb was benched halfway through the season.

Now you're just putting your foot further in your mouth. Saying he had DeSean Jackson in '09 doesn't refute what I said about going to the NFC title game in '08 with a rookie Jackson that still caught for over 900 yards. History shows that when McNabb has a credible receiver, the Eagles go deep in the playoffs. They did with TO even with him missing 4 games in '04 and also with a rookie Jackson in '08.


Quote:
It's funny how you'll talk up and defend McNabb but go out of your way to try and discredit Favre. I'm not a Green Bay fan or a Favre fan, but to say he's overrated sounds more like someone with an agenda or hatred. I'm not saying you are because I don't know who you are a fan of or who you aren't, but the perception is leaning that way. Same as if someone says that Tom Brady sucks. You can hate him all you want, but for someone to imply he sucks or isn't a top tier QB they are letting their bias and emotion overrule logic. It seems the same thing is taking place with your "thing" against Favre.

Agenda? I can say thing about someone that says McNabb is on the same level as Romo. My whole thread has been nothing but logic and I'm refuted everything you've said with undeniable football knowledge. And your attempts at refuting my posts have been nothing short of a complete failure. Maybe you should use logic like I have, instead of emotion and information that simply make no sense.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:15 PM
 
1,833 posts, read 2,082,085 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefffla01 View Post
Was Brett overrated?? Perhaps in the sense that he won only one superbowl with all the outstanding talent that the Packers had in his 16 years. Pack fans, I believe, generally feel that Bretts tendency to be a gun slinger and being prone to key interceptions, may have caused the team a shot at another title or two.

He most definitely cost the Packers games. The fact that the Packers only won 1 Superbowl and the one they did win was because Bledsoe epically failed for New England is a failure. They should have won 2-3 easily. This wasn't the early-mid 2000's Eagles or the Colts outside of '06. This team had a QB that was able to hit receivers, good running backs, good receivers, a good defense, and an OL that wasn't on the level of Dallas or San Francisco, but was still one of the better ones in the league. The fact that they won only 1 Superbowl is a complete failure.


Quote:
That being said, he was fun to watch---you were never out a game with him. He could throw you right of some games, but yikes you were never out of it with him either.

He was entertaining and they never were out of it. Then again, so were the Colts many times. Entertaining doesn't mean much when you're losing games you have no business losing.


Quote:
I wish Brett maybe hadnt thrown caution to the wind so much during his career----but I guess, if he didnt, he wouldnt have been Brett Favre.

It was Brett being Brett. No one ever questioned his heart. I sure never did. But his decision making certainly was questionable.


Quote:
I would certainly rank him the top 10 of all time nfl qbs------and despite the gastritis he caused us on occasions, when a couple more years pass by to cool off the rancor caused by his ill fated departure, Brett will return a hero to Green Bay and his name will be enshrined on the Packer wall of fame----and yes Brett---you are indeed, one of the packer greats.

He was a warrior, no doubt. Manning, Brady, Marino, Brees, Montana, Brady, Unitas, Elway and Young are all QB's I consider to be better than Favre. Him being top 10 is debatable and if he is, he's at the bottom of the top 10.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:24 PM
 
1,833 posts, read 2,082,085 times
Reputation: 1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Luv View Post
I'm not a Favre fan, but the guy still threw over 500 TDs and darn close to 72,000 yards in pass completions. Yeah, he may have thrown 336 interceptions, but out of how many total career throws? Brett has the most interceptions because he threw the ball so damn much. Perhaps too much, but still.

Of course you're going to throw more INTs if you throw so many more passes than everyone else. Just like any point guard is going to have more turnovers if they have more possessions. That's why I made a list for passes per INT. Every player I mentioned threw more passes per INT than Favre did.


Quote:
His record is impressive, and besides, no QB intentionally throws an interception. Sure, sometimes the interception was the result of a bad play on the QBs part, but sometimes it is on the receiver or even the defensive team who was able to read the play and out-run the receiver to the ball.

I was a high school QB. I never intentionally threw a pick either. But when you throw a pick(especially in the other team's zone), you're not only giving up potential points but also allowing the opposition to score unnecessary points. Sometimes, even giving them decent field position. Sometimes an INT is the fault of the receiver. Not every pick Favre threw was his fault. But, he didn't have the Eagles' WR's. He didn't have guys like James Thrash and Todd Pinkston. He had guys like Greg Jennings, Sterling Sharpe, Donald Driver, and Antonio Freeman. These guys weren't at all scrubs. All but Jennings were Pro Bowlers with Favre.
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:24 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,405 times
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I don't think Favre is the most overrated QB, but he has been overrated at certain times during his career. Favre was an amazing athlete, with a full complement of arm strength, foot speed, and he was incredibly durable. He almost seemed to enjoy getting knocked around, like it gave him an adrenaline rush or something.

But Favre also threw games away, and as much as he did positively, that will be the one knock on him. I won't say other great quarterbacks haven't had bad performances or thrown games away, either. But Favre seemed to do it with alarming regularity at times in his career.

Some, like John Madden, have defended him by using the home run slugger analogy: yeah, he strikes out and hits into double-plays but he also launches the long ball. I guess you could make that defense, but there were just too many key moments when he needed to make big plays and instead made ill-advised throws into double and triple coverage, sealing his team's fate.

I do agree that you can't only look at stats and make these kinds of judgments about players though. The stats don't tell the whole story. People will say that Marino's not so great because he never won a Super Bowl, but I'd come to Marino's defense and point out that, like Elway, he did not exactly have a Jerry Rice, John Taylor, or Brent Jones to throw to. He had good, fleet-footed receivers in Duper and Clayton, but not the kinds of weapons that some of the other QBs have had. I think that if Jimmy Johnson had come earlier in his career and if they had acquired a real running game to suit Marino's passing skills, and a defense to boot, there's no reason to think that Marino wouldn't have had two or three rings himself.

The best way anyone can gauge a QB or any player's skills is to have seen them play, and then compare them to the best players in the same era. Games change. Styles of play are different. That's why these discussions of who the best ever is are kinda pointless.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:41 PM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,327,436 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68 View Post
Not sure how you can call Favre the most overrated QB when you have players like Vick, McNabb, Romo, and more recently Tebow who receive a lion's share of the press and adulation but haven't won anything.
None of those guys are considered the best QB to EVER play the game.

Great post by the way Waka!!! great!
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