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Old 06-28-2012, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,261,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
Longetivity is some of the equation, but then, you have to consider guys like Martin, Smith and Bettis, who pretty much accumulated colossal stats just because of longetivity, and never did anything particuliarly special.

Where do you draw the line, between where a guy has been a game changer long enough for his body of work to matter, and when a guy is practically just falling over past the line 30 times a game for 13 years and quietly accumulates 13,662 career yards and 91 TDS
lol, nothing special Curtis Martin led the league in rushing at the age of 31. OJ was done after 29.
Going into that year everyone said Martin was done, he was so injured from almost 10 years of taking some incredible hits but had the drive and determination and his longest run was only a mere 25 yards Do you remember week 1 that year? I was at the game and saw this 31 yo cripple run for 196 yards. He carried it consistently all year and in the last week 17 still gained 153 yards to win the rushing title by 1 yard!

Like I said before I take a RB's complete body of work. I also believe Best back= Best Career.
Martin was more consistent, durable, better in protection, better receiver, better after taking a hit, never ran out of bounds, played injured, fumbled a lot less, longevity. OJ you couldn't keep on the field where as Martin you couldn't take off the field, 119 consecutive games, 20 + carries over 100x's.

When OJ was drafted there was a lot of hype, He went # 1 overall, Martin was pick (74) 3rd round and was the 9th running back taking in 1995. I don't think OJ lived up to his full potential where as Martin not only reached it he surpassed it by light years. How do you define greatness? There is more to a RB then YPC.

Last edited by BigMike50; 06-28-2012 at 07:53 AM..
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,017,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
lol, nothing special Curtis Martin led the league in rushing at the age of 31. OJ was done after 29.

When OJ was drafted there was a lot of hype, He went # 1 overall, Martin was pick (74) 3rd round and was the 9th running back taking in 1995. I don't think OJ lived up to his full potential where as Martin not only reached it he surpassed it by light years. How do you define greatness? There is more to a RB then YPC.

First thing, OJ Simpson retired in 1979, which made him 32. If by "29" you meant, his last 1000 yd season, by 29 OJ Simpson had led the NFL in rushing 4 times, and yards from scrimmage 3 times, TDs twice, longest run from scrimmage 3 times, and had a YPC over 5.0. From 1972-1976, OJ Simpson completely transcended the game. There was nobody on the field when he played, that could do what he did, period.

Even in 1974, Simpsons worst year during those 5, he was still 4th of 9 in YPC amongst backs with over 200 carries and 3rd in yards. Take 1976 though, his 3rd best year, he had Delvin Williams beat by a full .3 of a yard to lead the NFL in YPC amongst backs with over 200 carries, and only 4 others even had a YPC over 4.5 (Simpsons was 5.2). He also bested Walter Payton by 113 yards for the NFL lead, on 21 less carries and his 8 touchdowns still placed him 5th of 14.

At age 32, when Martin left the game, he managed to lead the league in yards just once, in his career year, but also led the NFL in carries. During Martins career, there were dozens of backs doing exactly what he was doing, infact, in Martins career year of 2004, amongst backs with over 300 carries, Corey Dillon, Shaun Alexander and Tiki Barber all had a higher YPC, 6 of the 8 had as many or more TDs than Martin, and 4 of the 8 had more receptions.

Martins next best year, 2001, 2 of 9 had a better YPC, 4 of 9 had more receptions, and 3 of 9 had more TDs.

Third best year, probably 1999, 3 of 5 had better YPC, 4 of 5 had equal of more TDs.

There are more things to a running back than yards per carry, however, one of those things is not simply being able to fall over 30 times a game past the line of scrimmage and get back up. I have zero respect for running backs in the John Riggins or Franco Harris mold. There is nothing to be said about a guy who just plays 12 years. You could have replaced Curtis Martin with 90% of the starting backs in the league, any given year, and gave them the same amount of carries, and they would produce identically.

You could not have given the ball to ANYONE else in the league in '73, '75 and '76 and had them replicate OJ Simpsons performance.

THAT is the sign of an all time great, not simply being able to carry the ball 300 times for 11 or 12 seasons.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,017,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
No doubt Emmitt padded his stats his final 3 seasons.. especially the final 2 in Arizona but prior to that, he had racked up 11 seasons of 1,000 plus yards in a row. That's RARE.. in fact That is the most ever!.. I think Sanders easily could have and would have had 11 in a row had he not retired before hand. So Emmitt's 11 and Sanders 10 are TOPS.. and of Course Jim Brown fell JUST short of 1000 yards twice in his career but 1 of those seasons was 12 games and the other was 14.. This is why I have Jim Brown, Barry Sanders and then Emmitt in my top 3.... Payton would have had 11 seasons of 1,000 yards or more if not for the '82 strike shortened season.. and Curtis Martin had 10 in a row which is why Payton and Martin round off my top 5. These top 5 RBs were GREAT and DOMINANT for a decade.. SO they have a combination of GREATNESS and LONGEVITY.. All the other top RBs fall short of that 9 or 10 year window of greatness...
Martin was NEVER dominant. He led the league in yards the only year he also led the league in carries. His YPC was pedestrian, and he was a good, but not elite receiving back, and had as many years under 5 tds as over 10.

You have a much better argument for Smith, who was outstanding between 91 and 95 (which not coincidentally overlaps the period of time the Cowboys constructed one of the best lines ever built) but still, if it werent for Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith would be head and shoulders above everyone for that period of time. What hurts Smith is that, between 1996 and 2004, he was absolutely nothing special. He was still getting around 300 carries, still eclipsing 1000 yds, but he was pretty much replaceable, and after 2000, he was just clearly embarrasing himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
I get what your saying about routine backs vs game breakers but no RB lasts 13 years if he has not got something special... I didn't pay close enough attention to Martin and Bettis' career but I was keen on Emmitt's and Emmitt did plenty of special things.. PLENTY! But beauty is in the eye of the beholder... what I think is special may not be what you think is special and i understand that..
How is hanging around for 11 years carrying the ball 300 times a year special? Its more luck than anything. There are some hyper whiny players in the NFL who go down with a hang nail, but most NFL players are of equivalent toughness. The difference is, some, like maybe Terrell Davis, end up having their careers derailed after 4 years because they were unlucky enough to have a devistating knee injury, while others, like Emmitt Smith, can go 14 seasons without any of the such.

Sure, I dont really think you can put people with 3 or 4 good years before going down in the conversation because its not really a true body of work, but I think, a guy like OJ Simpson, who posted 5 years of being clearly the best back in the NFL, should be in the conversation.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,628 posts, read 4,224,936 times
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Nice argument but you lost me at zero respect.

If you have zero respect for guys like John Riggins and Franco Harris then you never watched them play.. There is more than 1 style of RB. Just like there is more than 1 style of QB. Joe Montana was probably the most boring QB ever.. all he did as dink and dunk with occasional post to Rice.. but when the game was on the line, when it matter most and in the biggest game.. nobody was better than Joe.. We are ok with our QB being less flashy but for some reason, our RB has to be able to make 3 or 4 guys miss and bust an 80 run or he simply is not that good.. just an average JOE, not worthy of any respect. That's a JOKE!

John Riggins, Franco Harris and throw Larry Csonka into the mix may not have been the electrifying RB that would juke out 3 or 4 players and then bust a 90 yard TD run but what they did was better than most others. They ran the ball. If you don't think a RB that lowers his head and runs over a LB or safety is exciting and worthy of some of respect then your missing out on a lot of football.

Riggins, Harris, Csonka were not just routine RBs.. these guys were not just Super Bowl winners, they were all SUPER BOWL MVPs.. meaning that on the biggest stage, in the biggest game they were the BEST players on the field.. That has to be worth more than dozens of electrifying 80 yard TD runs during a routine regular season game.

You may not prefer a bruising RB over a game breaker... but that doesn't mean the bruiser, between the tackle running back is somehow less of a player and not deserving of any respect...
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,628 posts, read 4,224,936 times
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OJ is on my list of greatest RBs because I saw him play. He was the best RB for a period of about 5 years which is more than most can say.

You can look at it this way.. if I could take 1 RB during his PRIME and have him for just 1 game.. I would take OJ over any other RB except for MAYBE JIM BROWN. When OJ was at his peak there simply was no comparisons to the guy. We think 2000 yards is a a big deal these days. Hell OJ did that in only 14 games. OJ's 1973 season was the single greatest season any RB has ever had..
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:24 AM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,414,554 times
Reputation: 1322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Joe Montana was probably the most boring QB ever.. all he did as dink and dunk with occasional post to Rice..
I think you may wanna re-assess this conclusion...

Joe Montana's career Yards Per Attempt is 7.5

Joe Theisman's is 7.0
Brett Favre's & John Elway both are at 7.1
Terry Bradshaw's is 7.2
Dan Marino's is 7.3

And don't give me that he threw short passes and Rice made them long... Joe had already won 2 super bowls before Rice came in the league and he averaged 8.7 yards per attempt the year before Rice showed up.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,261,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
I think you may wanna re-assess this conclusion...

Joe Montana's career Yards Per Attempt is 7.5

Joe Theisman's is 7.0
Brett Favre's & John Elway both are at 7.1
Terry Bradshaw's is 7.2
Dan Marino's is 7.3

And don't give me that he threw short passes and Rice made them long... Joe had already won 2 super bowls before Rice came in the league and he averaged 8.7 yards per attempt the year before Rice showed up.

Come on dude there are 24 QB's that have better YPA then Cool Joe
11 soon to be 12 have more career yards
10 QB's have more career TD's
Most TD's he had in a season is 31 that's like 75 best.

But with that said I still say he is one of the best if not the best QB that ever played the game!
Paper stats are deceiving, doesn't tell the whole story! Heart, how you preform under pressure, leadership,longevity, character, attitude, work ethic, etc define greatness to me.
Pocket presence, footwork, accuracy, consistency,anticipation Joe Cool had it! Flash is the last thing I think of with Joe...he was kind of boring if you think of it,lol.
This is the argument I been making with the RB's

Last edited by BigMike50; 06-28-2012 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:57 AM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,414,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Come on dude there are 24 QB's that have better YPA then Cool Joe
Who are these QB's? Because if you notice I only put up QB's of his era... Of course the QB's of today have more YPA. duh! they chuck the ball around a lot more now than in Joe's day. Hence why he is on par if not ahead of all of the top QB's of his time. So to say he dinked and dunked is just not true...


whether you think he's boring is not my concern... and not something I care to debate.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,261,484 times
Reputation: 17256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
Who are these QB's? Because if you notice I only put up QB's of his era... Of course the QB's of today have more YPA. duh! they chuck the ball around a lot more now than in Joe's day. Hence why he is on par if not ahead of all of the top QB's of his time. So to say he dinked and dunked is just not true...


whether you think he's boring is not my concern... and not something I care to debate.

Did you read my whole post ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Come on dude there are 24 QB's that have better YPA then Cool Joe
11 soon to be 12 have more career yards
10 QB's have more career TD's
Most TD's he had in a season is 31 that's like 75 best.

But with that said I still say he is one of the best if not the best QB that ever played the game!
Paper stats are deceiving, doesn't tell the whole story! Heart, how you preform under pressure, leadership,longevity, character, attitude, work ethic, etc define greatness to me.
Pocket presence, footwork, accuracy, consistency,anticipation Joe Cool had it! Flash is the last thing I think of with Joe...he was kind of boring if you think of it,lol.
This is the argument I been making with the RB's
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:45 AM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,414,554 times
Reputation: 1322
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Did you read my whole post ?
Yes... and I addressed the part I wanted you to elaborate on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
there are 24 QB's that have better YPA then Cool Joe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
Who are these QB's?
and why
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
Because if you notice I only put up QB's of his era... Of course the QB's of today have more YPA. duh! they chuck the ball around a lot more now than in Joe's day. Hence why he is on par if not ahead of all of the top QB's of his time. So to say he dinked and dunked is just not true...
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