U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Pro Football
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-28-2012, 11:49 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,742,240 times
Reputation: 16145

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post
I have zero respect for running backs in the John Riggins or Franco Harris mold.
Good work. You have now been nominated for stupidest post of the year.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-28-2012, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,257,895 times
Reputation: 17256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post

There are more things to a running back than yards per carry, however, one of those things is not simply being able to fall over 30 times a game past the line of scrimmage and get back up. I have zero respect for running backs in the John Riggins or Franco Harris mold.
Two Superbowl MVP's. Two classy Hall of famers . They exemplify what a NFL player should be. I guess your mold is more of the Pacman Jones's,(Mod edit-partial sentence deletion) the Mike Vick's and the Tank Johnson's of the NFL

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 07-01-2012 at 11:29 PM.. Reason: partial sentence deletion
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-28-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,412,190 times
Reputation: 1322
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Two Superbowl MVP's. Two classy Hall of famers . They exemplify what a NFL player should be. I guess your mold is more of the Pacman Jones's and the Chris Henry's, the Mike Vick's and the Tank Johnson's of the NFL
It was not classy for you to bring him up in that situation. Not cool at all.

Let the man RIP...

Last edited by Mr. GE; 06-28-2012 at 04:13 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2012, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,628 posts, read 4,219,691 times
Reputation: 4582
My post concerning Joe Montana was simply made to point out that great QBs don't have to be as flashy as great RBs for some reason. Montana orchestrated the west coast offense and the west coast offense by definition was using short passes as an extension of the running game. Montana threw the ball deep, yes but he threw more short passes than any one before him.. it was boring as I recall but effective as hell. Roger Craig, a RB for the niners when Joe played, was the first RB to have 1k yards rushing and 1k yards receiving in a single season and he was NOT running deep posts...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,010,869 times
Reputation: 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Nice argument but you lost me at zero respect.

If you have zero respect for guys like John Riggins and Franco Harris then you never watched them play.. There is more than 1 style of RB. Just like there is more than 1 style of QB. Joe Montana was probably the most boring QB ever.. all he did as dink and dunk with occasional post to Rice.. but when the game was on the line, when it matter most and in the biggest game.. nobody was better than Joe..We are ok with our QB being less flashy but for some reason, our RB has to be able to make 3 or 4 guys miss and bust an 80 run or he simply is not that good.. just an average JOE, not worthy of any respect. That's a JOKE!
1. Its not about flash, its about consistantly doing things on the field that nobody else in your era was doing. Joe Montana was absolutely not an average Joe. He led the league 5 times in completion percentage, twice in TDs, twice in passer rating, and even led it once in yards per attempt. He ended his career with a 92.9 passer rating, which outside of Dan Marinos best years in the mid 80s, completely destroyed QBs of his ERA. For instance, in 1984, after Joe Montana, the next best passer rating was almost 10 points behind him. In 1987, Bernie Kosar pulled in 7 points behind him. In 1989, Boomer Esiason pulled in 10 points behind him.

Between 1983 and 1993 it was basically

1. Joe Montana
5. Dan Marino
10. Every body else.

Joe Montana was absolutely the definition of a true star with abilities and production that could not be duplicated by anyone in his time.


2. I never said somebody who doesnt make 3-4 people miss and cant bust an 80 yarder isnt good. They played in the NFL, so they are probably good. What I said was they arent special, and nothing they are doing is unique or transcending the game. Truth is, you could give the same amount of carries to nearly any starting running back in the league any year during Martins career, and they would duplicate Martins numbers. So what exactly is making Martin special? The fact that he was able to carry the ball 300 times for 11 years?

For comparison, there is no way you could give Chris Miller (12th highest rated QB in 1989) the ball, even with the 49ers 1989 offense, and have him replicate Montanas 1989 numbers. It just wouldnt happen. Montana was in another league. Martin was not ever in another league. You see the difference?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
John Riggins, Franco Harris and throw Larry Csonka into the mix may not have been the electrifying RB that would juke out 3 or 4 players and then bust a 90 yard TD run but what they did was better than most others. They ran the ball. If you don't think a RB that lowers his head and runs over a LB or safety is exciting and worthy of some of respect then your missing out on a lot of football.
I didnt say there isnt a place for these guys in the game, its great to have a big guy like Csonka on the goal line. Im saying, nothing they are doing is special, elite or unique. Dozens of backs were doing what they were doing every year, the only difference is that they just managed to outlast most of those backs and gain huge cumulative stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Riggins, Harris, Csonka were not just routine RBs.. these guys were not just Super Bowl winners, they were all SUPER BOWL MVPs.. meaning that on the biggest stage, in the biggest game they were the BEST players on the field.. That has to be worth more than dozens of electrifying 80 yard TD runs during a routine regular season game.
No, performing in 1 game is not worth more than dominating the league at your position for half a decade. Guys like Barry Sanders and OJ Simpson spent their entire lives on bad teams, and never even got to sniff the Super Bowl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
You may not prefer a bruising RB over a game breaker... but that doesn't mean the bruiser, between the tackle running back is somehow less of a player and not deserving of any respect...
He IS less of a player, because more people can replicate his performance. In any profession, the definition of being elite or the best, is that noone currently doing what you are doing, can produce at the level you can.

The definition of "average" means that many people doing what you are doing, can produce at the level you can.

Curtis Martin was a very average back, who stayed around for a very long time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,010,869 times
Reputation: 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMike50 View Post
Two Superbowl MVP's. Two classy Hall of famers . They exemplify what a NFL player should be. I guess your mold is more of the Pacman Jones's and the Chris Henry's, the Mike Vick's and the Tank Johnson's of the NFL

Yeah, because clearly Pacman Jones, Chris Henry, Michael Vick and Tank Johnson transcended their positions and are worth putting in the conversation with Joe Montana, Jim Brown and Barry Sanders.

By the way, you are completely confusing being an upstanding citizen, with talent on the football field. Being a good person does not, nor will ever, make you a good running back.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2012, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
5,517 posts, read 9,010,869 times
Reputation: 2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
My post concerning Joe Montana was simply made to point out that great QBs don't have to be as flashy as great RBs for some reason. Montana orchestrated the west coast offense and the west coast offense by definition was using short passes as an extension of the running game. Montana threw the ball deep, yes but he threw more short passes than any one before him.. it was boring as I recall but effective as hell. Roger Craig, a RB for the niners when Joe played, was the first RB to have 1k yards rushing and 1k yards receiving in a single season and he was NOT running deep posts...

What would you define as "flashy" for the QB position? Somebody who can throw the ball 75 yards? NFL history is littered with strong armed wash outs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2012, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Wallens Ridge
3,122 posts, read 4,257,895 times
Reputation: 17256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude View Post






I didnt say there isnt a place for these guys in the game, its great to have a big guy like Csonka on the goal line. Im saying, nothing they are doing is special, elite or unique. Dozens of backs were doing what they were doing every year, the only difference is that they just managed to outlast most of those backs and gain huge cumulative stats.



No, performing in 1 game is not worth more than dominating the league at your position for half a decade. Guys like Barry Sanders and OJ Simpson spent their entire lives on bad teams, and never even got to sniff the Super Bowl.



He IS less of a player, because more people can replicate his performance. In any profession, the definition of being elite or the best, is that noone currently doing what you are doing, can produce at the level you can.

The definition of "average" means that many people doing what you are doing, can produce at the level you can.

Curtis Martin was a very average back, who stayed around for a very long time.
First off Martin played the same number of years as O.J.

Getting back to the no respect for Riggins and Harris.. You keep saying anyback could do what they did as long as the play long enough

Franco Harris made 9 consecutive Pro bowls, 7 time all pro, help win 4 Superbowls, named to the 70's all decade team, Superbowl MVP, Rookie of the year, Sportsman of the year! Score 100 TD's Hall of Famer.

John Riggins- Hall of famer, Pro bowler, all pro , Superbowl MVP, Name to the 80's all decade team, 104 TD's, comeback player of the year. Do you remember the playoffs in 1983? He single handily took that Redskin team on his back and carried them to a Superbowl Victory....He gained more yards in the Superbowl than the whole entire Dolphin team

(mod edit-last sentence deleted)

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 07-01-2012 at 11:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2012, 10:26 PM
 
16,521 posts, read 20,961,579 times
Reputation: 47952
I'll take my time editing a few items here. Will wrap it up in the morning.

Let's not get too carried away here people. We have one of these debates every year regarding best running back, best quarterback, etc. That's ok! To be official this thread went off topic around 125 posts ago as the original debate centered on Smith versus Sanders. That's ok, and I slightly reworded the title of this thread to accommodate opinion. Down the road the debate got to quarterbacks (Joe Montana), needless to say not related to the thread title whatsoever. That's almost ok.

The last sentence of post #129? Not ok.

We've got three more weeks to go before camps open up, let's keep a little bit of a lid on it. And I agree with Mr. GE regarding Chris Henry. Let's not go there. ok? Thread will re-open now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2012, 06:08 PM
 
16,521 posts, read 20,961,579 times
Reputation: 47952
For the record, the "Top 100 players in NFL History", as featured in last Novembers polling on the NFL Channel, includes 19 running backs. Here's the list:

2. Jim Brown
5. Walter Payton
17. Barry Sanders
19. Bronko Nagurski
22. Gale Sayers
28. Emmitt Smith
37. Jim Thorpe
44. O.J. Simpson
48. Red Grange
52. Eric Dickerson
55. Earl Campbell
61. LaDanian Tomlinson
70. Marshall Faulk
74. Marion Motley
77. Tony Dorsett
85. Marcus Allen
89. Ernie Nevers
94. Lenny Moore
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Pro Football
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top