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Old 02-13-2014, 09:52 AM
 
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Yeah .... the Dale Hansen video was well done and he's right

I also want to be absolutely clear that there is no heterosexual agenda anymore than there is a homosexual agenda - there are just people trying to live their lives

That commentary is directed to those who think seeing pictures of gay people with their partners or being public with their partners is pushing something that doesn't happen within the straight community or that the actions of homosexual couples are never public and never put to the forefront

It's the "why do they announce they're gay, I don't announce I'm straight" - except athletes announce they are straight constantly by their actions - be it public appearances with their wives, their conduct (both good & bad) with women, etc

A homosexual doing those same exact things that we don't pay any attention to would create a story where they are questioned on their orientation and must make a proclaimation ............ I don't feel this is right or necessary, but I can't deny that it's simply the truth of the way it is right now

I see it changing and think this is a good step in that direction

 
Old 02-13-2014, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,624 posts, read 16,428,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
It is very well possible that Rhodes was passed over due to the rumors. The Giants did invite him to tryout last summer, did a look see but passed on him. I believe there is a dis-connect between the players and the front office on the issue. I am confident that a large majority of players in the NFL would have no problem with an openly gay teammate. The front office may be a different story.
I think you're wrong about the players. I think they would have been ok with it if he wasn't a media sensation.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwardA View Post
Heterosexuality brings life, homosexuality is dead end. That sums it up.
Which is irrelevant to if someone can perform a job function, be treated equally under the law, should face discrimination or bigotry, etc.

In fact that comment is completely irrelevant to anything that was mentioned in the video
 
Old 02-13-2014, 02:10 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,136 posts, read 11,645,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
No need to equate ... there are differences, but nothing that should leave a person to a road of discrimination, hatred or bigotry
Let's be clear, I have never advocated for Sam to be treated differently as a football player. I think you are arguing something that is irrelevant to what I am saying. I am only addressing the point that you made about how heterosexuality is being promoted. That is a terrible rebuttal to what is being transpiring in the media. You can say what you want, but the attention this is receiving is ridiculous. I have never seen a story that takes up the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter while the Olympics is going on. I'm not necessarily placing full blame on him, but it's just reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Of course. I love my parents greatly as well. It is still irrelevant to the treatment of those who aren't in heterosexual relationships
You aren't seeing the problem with your logic. You are saying that you do not equate homosexuality to heterosexuality but you keep comparing the treatment of both. If you didn't think they were the same you wouldn't keep comparing the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
You missed the entire point of that entire post. Even the obvious bits.

People in this thread and other places rail on the "homosexual agenda". Frequently bringing up media coverage, pictures, portrayal on TV, etc as the pushing of this agenda.

People also keep saying things like - "they are trying to shove it down our throat" - when the thing they are trying to do is the same stuff we all do .... go to dinner with your partner, share an embrace in public, etc

The heterosexual agenda was a tongue in cheek stab because I posted a picture of a guy getting kissed by his wife .... the type of stuff we see all the time and pay zero attention to .... yet if the guy was getting that same exact kiss from his husband a certain portion would freak out, start screaming about agendas, etc

You're right though - I do find the "agenda" talk ridiculous
It's a fair criticism. Never will you hear an analysis of how a heterosexual athletes relationships will impact their ability to play.

Again the problem with your tongue-in-cheek argument is you are passively comparing homosexuality to heterosexuality. Of course you will see an athlete with his family. If he has parents who are living, you could make the same argument that they are showing heterosexuals, but to ignore it, would be to ignore the basic family structure. We cannot get away from the fact that we have a mother and father. The criticism that these athletes may have a significant other they are with, is hyperbole. Rarely do you ever see players who get drafted with a significant other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Wow - that's a leap .... where did I ever say we shouldn't show someone with their family or loved ones?!

I'm advocating just the opposite - that all should have the right to be in public with their loved ones without public harassment or threat of it impacting their employment
You are criticizing showing heterosexual relationships. What would showing a mother and father mean then?

There is nothing stopping gays from doing that. I have seen plenty who do it. Those who choose not to do it, are looking for acceptance they may never get. No one is forcing them to hide. People are criticized and harassed even in heterosexual relationships. At the end of the day it's your choice of what you will be willing to put up with. How many heterosexual celebrities do you know have been secretive about their relationships for the same reasons you describe? We live in a cruel society. If Sam wants to be with his lover, then no one is stopping him. Why does he have to hide it? He will have to do it regardless, you can't wait for everyone to accept him, because it will likely never happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Again - who said this?

I burn your strawman with fire
Sarcasm obviously to show that we can't really hide heterosexuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Of course it will be the norm. Many things are the norm and many things are the majority.

That doesn't give a license to discriminate, harass, abuse against someone who doesn't square to the norm though

We have rights to protect people from such things.

There is absolutely no reason a gay person should have to marginalize themselves and deny that they are gay in order to secure employment in their chosen field - none.
Who are you talking about? Is that what I am saying? Am I advocating that? So why do you keep bringing it up to me? Again I just addressed one point of yours.

If a gay person marginalize themselves, then that is ultimately their choice. If you live that life, you can't wait for people to accept you. That is not healthy. If you are confident about what you are, then you don't need people acceptance. There is a lot of insecurity in the gay community and too often there are people looking for acceptance and forcing it instead of being comfortable with what they are. I am sorry to say there is something wrong with that. I don't need approval for anyone to marry my wife and spend my life with her and I'm not going to hide it, why should I? So why do gays feel like they need acceptance to be who they are?
 
Old 02-13-2014, 02:14 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,429,052 times
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You responded to my post that was part of a general discussion

Obviously a disconnect here that frankly isn't worth clearing up any further

You admit in your own post that the amount of media coverage is nuts - which it is

Then you talk about how they shouldn't have to hide - they shouldn't

It's not a matter of approval though, it's a matter of discrimation

Neither your nor I needed some vast societal approval to marry our wives - however, we didn't need to worry about being fired (or not hired at all) because we chose to marry our lives

That is the difference
 
Old 02-13-2014, 03:00 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,136 posts, read 11,645,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
You responded to my post that was part of a general discussion

Obviously a disconnect here that frankly isn't worth clearing up any further

You admit in your own post that the amount of media coverage is nuts - which it is

Then you talk about how they shouldn't have to hide - they shouldn't

It's not a matter of approval though, it's a matter of discrimation

Neither your nor I needed some vast societal approval to marry our wives - however, we didn't need to worry about being fired (or not hired at all) because we chose to marry our lives

That is the difference
That's because I can be fired as soon as they see my skin color. At least you can hide who you marry when you get hired and sometimes even beyond that. I can't hide being black, so I know very well what being discriminated against can look like. Is there discrimination of gays? Sure I wouldn't doubt it, but why is that relevant? He is getting a chance to do something that most people, gay or straight, do not get to do. So why are we talking about something that HE has not suffered? This is a thread about Michael Sam, not about discrimination against gays. Unless he is being discriminated against, I don't see how your constant inference about discrimination is relevant.

Only time will tell how he will be treated. I think if he is serious about playing football and doesn't make himself a distraction then it will blow over. There have been gay players in the NFL. It certainly will be an adjustment and some may not accept it, but if he handles this the right way, then it shouldn't be an issue. But again only time will tell.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 03:04 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,429,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans View Post
That's because I can be fired as soon as they see my skin color. At least you can hide who you marry when you get hired and sometimes even beyond that. I can't hide being black, so I know very well what being discriminated against can look like. Is there discrimination of gays? Sure I wouldn't doubt it, but why is that relevant? He is getting a chance to do something that most people, gay or straight, do not get to do. So why are we talking about something that HE has not suffered? This is a thread about Michael Sam, not about discrimination against gays. Unless he is being discriminated against, I don't see how your constant inference about discrimination is relevant.
Actually you can't - at least not legally

Being black is a protected class and it's illegal to fire someone on that basis

On one hand you say he shouldn't hide being gay and doesn't have to ... then you say in order to avoid discrimination he can always hide being gay ........... alright then...........

If you can't figure out the link between this being a story and potential about discrimination towards gays and how Michael Sam plays into that, then I really don't know what to tell you
 
Old 02-13-2014, 03:41 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,136 posts, read 11,645,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Actually you can't - at least not legally

Being black is a protected class and it's illegal to fire someone on that basis

On one hand you say he shouldn't hide being gay and doesn't have to ... then you say in order to avoid discrimination he can always hide being gay ........... alright then...........

If you can't figure out the link between this being a story and potential about discrimination towards gays and how Michael Sam plays into that, then I really don't know what to tell you
I didn't say anyone SHOULD hide being gay, I said they CAN!!! Huge difference in what I said, what you inferred.

Please help me understand the link. How has, specifically, Michael Sam, since that is the title of the thread, been discriminated against? I'm not saying that he can't be, but we don't know what might happen. If someone picks him and he has a long career then this is really a moot point. At this point you are speculating.
 
Old 02-13-2014, 03:55 PM
 
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That's the basis of the whole conversation though - people speculating about what would happen and what could happen

There have been some execs that have flat out said they dropped him on their draft boards when they thought he was gay - if true, then yes his sexual orientation has already been used against him

He's the first - the test case is always widely monitored and reported on with plenty of speculation
 
Old 02-13-2014, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Emmaus, PA
3,151 posts, read 2,193,197 times
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YES - He is the first and the team drafting him will go in the record books for being the first team to KNOWINGLY draft a homosexual player. This will get a HUGE amount of media and public scrutiny.
The 2nd player and the second team will get less and the 3rd practically none.

In 2-3 years, this will be a ho-hum story and we will wonder in amazement why this was even a story at all.
Because Mr. Sam is the first, even the first homosexual players in baseball, basketball, hockey, or whatever, will face less scrutiny than Mr. Sam will face.

Since this barrier is about to be broken, the NEXT big story will be the first female to participate in a major sport - MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL - if or whenever that happens.
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