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Old 06-08-2014, 10:47 AM
 
3,722 posts, read 1,613,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
Not sure I understand your position. Despite his unbelievable career that includes a ton of passing records Dan Marino is rarely on anyone's short list of greatest QBs ever. That list nearly always contains the names Montana, Unitas and other QBs with rings. And the reason Marino is not there often is obvious, his playoff record and the lack of a ring So yeah people do factor in his playoff record, as they should And the same holds true for Peyton.
Okay, but Peyton has better career numbers then Marino. Two more super bowl appearances and one ring to Marino's zero.

I would say Marino is in most peoples top 5-6 QBs of all time. And considering he only had one super bowl appearance that is pretty good.

So factor in Peyton having better numbers and more Super Bowl appearances and a ring, he is easily top 5.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:50 AM
 
3,722 posts, read 1,613,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Taco64 View Post
Might not have considered him bad....but doubtful anyone would have mentioned him as an all-time great either.

For example, Matt Ryan has not been all that great in the playoffs...but he is not a bad QB, just not a great one. Still miles better then someone like Blaine Gabbert...while not coming close to a guy like Brady or Unitas.
Speaking of Brady, what has he done in the last 10 years that Peyton has not?
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Old 06-08-2014, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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I'm not so sure Marino is a consensus top 5-6 QB. As for Brady, good point about his recent lack of success although he's a dropped pass from having another ring recently. But we are talking entire career, not just last 10 years.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:14 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,303 posts, read 10,459,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Taco64 View Post
Really? I thought it was pretty clear he has lost a lot of zip on the ball. It helped that he did not have to play a lot of games in very windy conditions, but the that game in New England, he struggled very badly going into the wind. It was a big part of the reason they lost after turning 3 fumbles into points right at the start of the game. Any time he tried to push it downfield it was fluttering really bad at the end of it's trajectory....tough conditions....but Brady was able to cut through it pretty well, and he's no spring chicken either.
You've got one game. One game. The Broncos played 19 last season, but you're focussing on one game. I'll take the complete body of work. Some games were better than others, it is with any NFL QB. But to use one game to make your case...doesn't make your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Taco64 View Post
Yes, I think the playoff failures will outshine his regular season stats when it is all said and done...nobody remembers QBs piling up 400 and 5 TDs on the Raiders in October, they remember the QBs that have success in the playoffs.
I think the playoff losses will always be a part of the Manning discussion. Unless, of course he leads the Broncos to a Super Bowl win before his retirement. History is against this happening (for a lot of reasons), so if it does it will likely be one of the most significant Super Bowl wins in the history of the game. If this happens before the end of his career, only the hardest and most dedicated of Manning skeptics will be able to focus on the playoff losses. Fans with a greater appreciation for the game will recognize the achievement for what it is.

All speculation, of course. It has to happen first, and as I said, history is against Manning and the Broncos right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Taco64 View Post
Montana won 4 Super Bowls, Brady has won 3 and had his team ahead in the closing minutes of two others.
Montana is an all-time great and Brady has earned his spot in the discussion of greatest 5 of all time as well. I wonder to what extent greatness is defined as "having a ring/s" or not. Dan Marino is one of the more revered QBs of all time, and Jim Kelly led the Bills to 4 Super Bowls in a row, losing all four. Still, Kelly has accomplished something Brady, Elway, Montana, Manning, and many countless others have not. Is he one of the greats? Or do his losses render him unworthy of "greatness" despite leading his team to 4 consecutive Super Bowls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Taco64 View Post
People will come in here and say that wins are a team stat, and they are right, but Manning went into this Super Bowl with the best offense ever assembled....and put up 8 points...and those two awful INTs he threw are most certainly not a team stat.
You can look at that game in a lot of ways. First, even as a Broncos fan I have to give the Seahawks a lot of credit. Manning detractors will make the argument you made and seem to always leave out Seattle brought in perhaps one of the greatest defenses of all time. Sure others looked better on the stat sheet, but remember, Seattle's compares nicely in raw stats AND they did it in an era where the league favors the offense. Adjusted for "inflation" the Seahawks arguably brought the best defense of all time into that game.

With that said, the Broncos clearly did not enter the game ready to play, as evidenced by the first snap. You will never hear me make the "they didn't beat us so much as we beat ourselves" argument. But I will say the Broncos were the beginning of their own undoing. The Seahawks deserve a lot of credit for recognizing this and exploiting it. In a fair game they won straight up.

I recall some of the discussion prior to that game dealt greatly with Manning's legacy if the Broncos would have won. Many agreed it would have been cemented considering the level of the Broncos opponent. But the Broncos lost, so this discussion remains with us.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,344 posts, read 3,957,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
Not sure I understand your position. Despite his unbelievable career that includes a ton of passing records Dan Marino is rarely on anyone's short list of greatest QBs ever. That list nearly always contains the names Montana, Unitas and other QBs with rings. And the reason Marino is not there often is obvious, his playoff record and the lack of a championship. So yeah people do factor in his playoff record, as they should IMO.
I suppose if your looking at lists from message boards like this, your probably right. Most casual fans only count rings.. nothing else matters but for football analyst who actually get paid for their opinions...I don't think most of them could name more than 5 QBs better than Marino.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:17 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,303 posts, read 10,459,937 times
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Also, I don't even think you can rightly identify a single "greatest of all time." I think you can narrow down 5 or 6 QBs who will round out the top echelon of the discussion and probably make a solid case for each from there, but never get a consensus. And I think that's okay. Does there need to be a consensus GOAT? If there is one, what would we all talk about in these quiet months we call the off season?
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,344 posts, read 3,957,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Speaking of Brady, what has he done in the last 10 years that Peyton has not?
That should underscore that it takes more than a great QB to win a Super Bowl. In fact, since the Patriots started leaning more on their offense, neglecting their defense, they haven't won a Super Bowl despite having arguable the best QB in the game..
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:21 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,076,846 times
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No, he will be remembered as one of the best ever.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:30 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,303 posts, read 10,459,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Elway was on a 0-4 streak then hit pay dirt. I don't think anyone would have thought him a bad QB if he never won one. Heck, he carried that team for so many years with sub-par talent around him. What did the 3 amigos do when they left for bigger bucks? Nothing, that's what. Elway MADE them good.
Elway was 0-3 in the Super Bowl until their wins in the late 1990s. The Broncos first Super Bowl was the 1977 team led by Craig Morton. They finished the regular season 12-2 and lost to the Cowboys 27-10.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
9,436 posts, read 5,219,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
I suppose if your looking at lists from message boards like this, your probably right. Most casual fans only count rings.. nothing else matters but for football analyst who actually get paid for their opinions...I don't think most of them could name more than 5 QBs better than Marino.

A quick search from those paid for their opinion on Marino on the all time list:

#7
Top 25 NFL Quarterbacks of All Time: Why We Need To Take a Fresh Look at History | Bleacher Report

#12
Top 12 NFL quarterbacks of all-time | The Kansas City Star

#8
The NFL's 25 Greatest Quarterbacks of All-Time | AthlonSports.com

#14
Peyton Manning and the Top 20 QBs of All-Time | Jonathan Hobratsch

Now don't get me wrong, there were several that had him in the 5-6 range. But like I said it is not a consensus opinion that he is top 5. And there should be no doubt his lack of postseason success is the reason. Like you said it's hard to argue that there were 13 QBs better. But fair or not this is how QBs are judged. Personally I think it's totally fair.

Why are we even talking about Jim Kelly? He is a HOF and a great QB but not even in this discussion.
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