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Old 01-12-2015, 10:45 AM
 
4,291 posts, read 1,855,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas_Cabbie View Post
And... There's a reason there's a 17 point gap in QB rating between Wilson and Rodgers.

Pleaze...
And last year that difference was only 3 points and the year before, Wilson's rookie year, only 8 points. Wilson has never been a slouch throwing the ball. Add in his rushing ability and it puts him in the first tier.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:51 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,606,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
It's about a combination of numbers and success.

What makes Brady a better QB than Manning hands down IMHO is that his numbers are pretty good on their own, but his winning percentage is ridiculous. Plus his post season record speaks for itself. Just the fact he's going to his 9th AFC Championship speaks volumes. Yes it's a team sport, so rating a QB has a lot to do with the team around him.

Wilson has won with lesser stats because their defense is one of the best, maybe ever (at least the past few years). Brady has, by the numbers, had much less to work with over the years. He's had players come in who were considered average and made them super stars (Welker). Moss had his best year ever with Brady. And the Pats really haven't had a running game to force good play action like Manning had with James.

To rate any position, you need to look at all of the variables. Why isn't Terry Bradshaw considered one of the best ever - Steel Curtain.
I think what makes Brady better than Manning (wouldn't say hands-down necessarily) is that Brady has probably done more with less. He's also been extremely good at learning and implementing highly complex offensive strategies and schemes that are ever-evolving. Not every quarterback can do that, and some quarterbacks probably would have insisted that they not be forced to learn a new system every year with new wrinkles every week. Brady learns it, soaks it up like a sponge, and masterfully implements it year after year.

Manning can hold his own, though. Having success with two different franchises speaks for itself, as does going to a Super Bowl with three different head coaches. Who was Dallas Clark again anyway? Who would know Pierre Garcon or Reggie Wayne or Marvin Harrison if #18 weren't the one passing the ball to them? Maybe they get some publicity and success elsewhere but not much. I personally agree that Brady's slightly more accomplished, but Manning's definitely a stud in his own right. I just don't think he's as good with the deep ball post neck surgery.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:59 AM
 
6,438 posts, read 3,450,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I think what makes Brady better than Manning (wouldn't say hands-down necessarily) is that Brady has probably done more with less. He's also been extremely good at learning and implementing highly complex offensive strategies and schemes that are ever-evolving. Not every quarterback can do that, and some quarterbacks probably would have insisted that they not be forced to learn a new system every year with new wrinkles every week. Brady learns it, soaks it up like a sponge, and masterfully implements it year after year.

Manning can hold his own, though. Having success with two different franchises speaks for itself, as does going to a Super Bowl with three different head coaches. Who was Dallas Clark again anyway? Who would know Pierre Garcon or Reggie Wayne or Marvin Harrison if #18 weren't the one passing the ball to them? Maybe they get some publicity and success elsewhere but not much. I personally agree that Brady's slightly more accomplished, but Manning's definitely a stud in his own right. I just don't think he's as good with the deep ball post neck surgery.
Trust me, Manning should always be talked about in the same conversation with Brady. And yes, as Brady has done, Manning has made players better around him, something that not every QB can do. I will disagree with Harrison though, as I think he would be great on any team. Brady and Manning put the ball where it needs to be, so even an average player only needs to get to a spot. But that average player with an average QB would make both look worse as maybe he couldn't catch a ball not thrown that well. Harrison could go up and catch balls others could not.

Manning had a running game in Indy with James, thus teams had to be wary of the run. For the most part, Brady never had that luxury. And Manning to Denver came with a loaded offense to work with. Brady has been playing with mostly interchangeable parts his whole career.

Again, both are great. I just think Brady's accomplishments are better.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
1,423 posts, read 1,279,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
No, that is not what I meant by "it".

I never said Wilson is better than Rodgers or Luck, BTW. I would absolutely take him (now in what, his third year) over Brees, Flacco, Manning, Cam Newton, etc. Heck, even Brady.

Luck and Rodgers might be the only two I wouldn't take Wilson over if starting a team.



This is "it". I saw it when I saw him at UW for that year, he, even when the rest of his offense isn't doing much, and the D is shakey, he finds a way to win or at least put the team in a position to win. Even when not having great stats.
I used to go to the games at Camp Randall quite often when I was living in Wisconsin... Particularly during the Ball, Watt and Wilson years.

Wisconsin has always been a rushing team and have always had insane offensive lines and defenses...

...see the pattern yet???
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:48 AM
 
4,291 posts, read 1,855,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas_Cabbie View Post
I used to go to the games at Camp Randall quite often when I was living in Wisconsin... Particularly during the Ball, Watt and Wilson years.

Wisconsin has always been a rushing team and have always had insane offensive lines and defenses...

...see the pattern yet???
The pattern is you down playing Wilson rushing the ball. The rule book allows for the QB to run. Thus, running is part of a QB's arsenal and should be taken in account when looking at his overall ability to play the position.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:51 AM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,145,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas_Cabbie View Post
I used to go to the games at Camp Randall quite often when I was living in Wisconsin... Particularly during the Ball, Watt and Wilson years.

Wisconsin has always been a rushing team and have always had insane offensive lines and defenses...

...see the pattern yet???
They didn't have insane defense the year Wilson was QB. That was why Wilson needed to do more. He plays intelligently within the confines of what is needed.

What pattern? That good lines help? Ok, yeah, they do. They help everyone. Brady won his super bowls the years he did without great receivers, and only one excellent RB (Dillon). They did have great lines. He hasn't won since. Not sure your point. I don't see any QB winning really any SBs without good lines.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
1,423 posts, read 1,279,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
They didn't have insane defense the year Wilson was QB. That was why Wilson needed to do more. He plays intelligently within the confines of what is needed.

What pattern? That good lines help? Ok, yeah, they do. They help everyone. Brady won his super bowls the years he did without great receivers, and only one excellent RB (Dillon). They did have great lines. He hasn't won since. Not sure your point. I don't see any QB winning really any SBs without good lines.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
Not exactly sure where you get your info from, but the 2011 Wisconsin defense was definitely above average. They only allowed a total of 316 yards of offense per game... Which, needless to say, is very good in college football.

MY POINT IS... it makes it a heck of a lot easier on a QB when he has always been around elite defenses.

I'm not downplaying rushing stats... I just think some people are looking into it a bit much.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:37 PM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,145,587 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas_Cabbie View Post
Not exactly sure where you get your info from, but the 2011 Wisconsin defense was definitely above average. They only allowed a total of 316 yards of offense per game... Which, needless to say, is very good in college football.

MY POINT IS... it makes it a heck of a lot easier on a QB when he has always been around elite defenses.

I'm not downplaying rushing stats... I just think some people are looking into it a bit much.

I get my info from watching every game that year. Above average (in a mediocre big ten) is not insanely good, and wasn't to the level of their other years. They did a lot of outscoring of opponents.

And NO SHEET. Brady won his superbowls when he had a better defense. Flacco won with great defense.

Next thing you'll tell me a good running game helps a QB, or a great O line helps. Wow!

Wilson is special since he runs smart. He gets down smart. He's looking downfield while he is scrambling and can make the throws on the run. His yards running are almost inconsequential to how he runs and when he runs.

Stats won't tell you. It's the eyeball test. Wisconsin had a top five defense according to the stats this year. They were NOT one of the best five defenses. Eyeballs tell you that.
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Old 01-12-2015, 12:41 PM
 
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I am not a Patriot fan, but i do admire Brady. I have never seen a QB do so much with so little....The detractor argument is that Brady played with these incredible defenses when they won those 3 SB's....they were solid defenses but they were no where near the 1985 Bears, 2000's Ravens or 2013-2014 Seattle defenses....so lets not get crazy and think he played with the NE version of the "Steel Curtain" when he won 3 SB's and been to a total of 5
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Old 01-12-2015, 03:29 PM
 
18,343 posts, read 23,510,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elder Wand View Post
I am not a Patriot fan, but i do admire Brady. I have never seen a QB do so much with so little....The detractor argument is that Brady played with these incredible defenses when they won those 3 SB's....they were solid defenses but they were no where near the 1985 Bears, 2000's Ravens or 2013-2014 Seattle defenses....so lets not get crazy and think he played with the NE version of the "Steel Curtain" when he won 3 SB's and been to a total of 5
good post...

brady took mediocre teams at best and brought them to the playoffs

he at least gets the teams to the dance- doesn't mean they will win the dance contest, but they have a chance

for the phil. eagles does that make any sense??
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