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Old 01-26-2015, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,630 posts, read 4,227,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
I'm a Tom Brady fan, and I say he is "one of the greatest". I've never believed you can tag someone THE greatest, even if Tom wins his 4th this coming Sunday.
Agreed, you will never get a consensus on greatest QB of all time. At least not from the list we currently have. Every one has their favorite and each have a legitimate argument. Best to say, Brady is one of the greatest or arguable the greatest. I like that approach, arguably the greatest because you certainly argue that Brady is the greatest of all times.
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:22 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
13,223 posts, read 17,975,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkalot View Post
Starr and Jurgensen before some of those guys. I wouldn't have Cunningham on the list. Bradshaw won because of the team. Lots of guys could have quarterbacked those teams.
Lots of QBs could have called all their own plays for the entirety of their careers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep It Simple View Post
MCO, if you say it's all about the rings, while I don't agree with that, but it's their criteria, then Roethlisberger is ahead of guys like Rodgers, Wilson, Marino, Fouts, Kelly, Tarkenton. While rings should be one aspect, it cannot be the end all be all
Pro Football Reference indicates that Ben Roethlisberger's career quality through his first 10 seasons tracks most closely with Jim Kelly and John Elway. And Roethlisberger just had another outstanding season, so it wouldn't surprise me if he continues to track closely with those two QBs through his 11th season.



NOTE: The names of the QBs are arranged in order of career similarity, with the most similar being listed first. The QBs underlined in RED are first-ballot Hall-of-Famers, and the QBs underlined in YELLOW are other Hall-of-Famers.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:57 PM
 
328 posts, read 329,094 times
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Without really digging and thinking a lot on this I will go with this.


Montana
Brady
Manning
Marino
Unitas
Starr

The rest quickly as I have to go.

Tarkenton
Fouts
Young
Staubach
Aikman
Favre
Elway
Esiason
Kelly
Stabler
Thiesman


I dont add Bradshaw because I do not think he could have won any of those rings on another team. He just got lucky to have all the talent around him.

The best QB to always play on lousy teams was Marino. Had he played somewhere other then Miami he probably would be at the top of the list. The man was that good.
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Old 01-30-2015, 05:58 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
13,223 posts, read 17,975,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB86 View Post
Without really digging and thinking a lot on this...
That's been made blatantly obvious by the content of the rest of your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MB86 View Post
Montana
Brady
Manning
Marino
Unitas
Starr

The rest quickly as I have to go.

Tarkenton
Fouts
Young
Staubach
Aikman
Favre
Elway
Esiason
Kelly
Stabler
Thiesman


I dont add Bradshaw because I do not think he could have won any of those rings on another team. He just got lucky to have all the talent around him.
The only QBs on your list who are indubitably better than Terry Bradshaw are Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Johnny Unitas, Steve Young, Brett Favre and John Elway, and also Joe Montana, whom you failed to mention somehow.

Bart Starr? He played with even more Hall-of-Famers than Bradshaw did, and the only reason his career TD/INT ratio is higher than Bradshaw's is because Bradshaw played as a rookie while Starr sat as a rookie. Factor out Bradshaw's rookie season, and not only is his career TD/INT ratio equal to Starr's, but his overall body of work is similar in many ways. Each was First-Team All-Pro QB and league MVP once, and a Super Bowl MVP twice. Starr went to one more Pro Bowl than Bradshaw did.

Fran Tarkenton? Bradshaw outdueled him head-to-head in Super Bowl IX. Not only did Tarkenton never win a Super Bowl, but his performance was shockingly bad in all three he played. His Super Bowl aggregate includes six INTs, one lonely TD pass that wasn't thrown until his third appearance, and a combined passer rating of 43.2. As pretty as his stats were in the regular season, he was clearly a liability in big games.

Dan Fouts? He was just a guy until Don Coryell came along. He never even played in a Super Bowl, let alone won one. He's just like Tarkenton, with big regular-season numbers wasted by small performances in big games. Bradshaw never threw five INTs in a playoff game; Fouts did it twice.

Roger Staubach? Bradshaw outdueled him head-to-head in the Super Bowl -- twice. Furthermore, Staubach was never a First-Team All-Pro QB or league MVP like Bradshaw was. For that matter, he was the original "system" QB, in which an assistant coach takes over the play-calling duties, effectively reducing the QB's role in the offense. Meanwhile, Bradshaw was the only QB left calling all his own plays by the late 1970s. Here's how Sports Illustrated compared the two QBs in their December 18, 1978 edition:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Illustrated
Yes, [Bradshaw] is a smart quarterback, his unfortunate image to the contrary. Although he has been picking NFL defenses to pieces all year, he remains, in the eyes of the ignorant, "dumb." Bradshaw calls all of his own plays, often brilliantly. Roger Staubach, supposedly a clever quarterback, calls almost none of his.
Plain and simple, Bradshaw had a higher level of responsibility in his offense than Staubach ever did in his, because Bradshaw was the de facto offensive coordinator for the Steelers. There's no proof that Staubach could have handled QBing duties and play-calling duties at the same time like Bradshaw did.

Troy Aikman? He was the Super Bowl XXVII MVP, but that's where his individual performance-based accolades stop. Like Staubach, he was never a First-Team All-Pro QB or league MVP like Bradshaw was. Furthermore, despite playing on an offense that was even more stacked than any that Bradshaw ever had, and having an offensive coordinator to boot, his offense never led the league in scoring like Bradshaw's did in 1979.

Boomer Esiason? He's certainly underrated, and he was a First-Team All-Pro QB and league MVP just like Bradshaw was, but his prime was shorter. In fact, Bradshaw remained one of the best QBs in the NFL into the early 1980s before he was forced into premature retirement by a recurring injury in his throwing elbow. If not for that, he could have played into the mid-1980s. On the other hand, Esiason's performance declined enough in the early 1990s that the Bengals got rid of him at the age of 31, which is still supposed to be a QB's prime. He fell off too soon.

Jim Kelly? He was a First-Team All-Pro QB in 1991, but never a league MVP or Super Bowl MVP like Bradshaw was. And though he deserves a lot of respect for taking his team to four straight Super Bowls, we shouldn't overlook the fact that he didn't throw a single TD pass in three of them despite benefiting from other Hall-of-Famers on offense with him. Bradshaw was a better QB than Kelly in big games.

Ken Stabler? At least Bradshaw threw more TD passes than INTs in his career, unlike Stabler.

Joe Theismann? He was a First-Team All-Pro QB and league MVP just like Bradshaw, but those accomplishments were marred when he lost a Super Bowl that he shouldn't have at the end of that same season. Furthermore, he went to fewer Pro Bowls than Bradshaw, and he was never a season leader in any major statistical passing category.

Meanwhile, Bradshaw has it all. Championships? Check. Memorable performances? Check. Individual performance-based awards and accolades? Check. Season leader in various major passing statistics? Check. Best QB in the NFL for at least one season? Check. Among the best QBs in the NFL for the better part of a decade? Check. Longevity? Check.

You cannot make a convincing case that Bart Starr, Dan Fouts, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman, Boomer Esiason, Jim Kelly, Ken Stabler or Joe Theismann were better QBs than Terry Bradshaw, and you might not even be able to make a case for Fran Tarkenton either, regardless of his regular-season statistics. It sounds odd to say since he's a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Bradshaw is actually one of the most underrated QBs in NFL history.
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Old 01-30-2015, 07:43 AM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,861,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
It sounds odd to say since he's a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Bradshaw is actually one of the most underrated QBs in NFL history.
He certainly doesn't get the respect that other QBs would have if they had won 4 super bowls. I think that certainly does speak to the fact that many people feel he is a few notches below the great ones.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:15 AM
 
1,069 posts, read 555,990 times
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Cowboy fan here....Loved Staubach, White, Aikman

I look at Bradshaw and he played with 11 HOF players. Great QB, but he had a lot of help. Montana had Rice and he also played with 2 borderline HOF players in Craig and Clark

I look at what Brady had to play with. When he had Moss, he put up monster numbers. When he won SB's, he had journeyman receivers at best. Corey Dillion was a good back, far from great. I hear people talk about the Pats defense when they won and each year that goes by, the defense gets better and better (like an old fishermans tale). Those defenses were good defenses, they were nowhere near GREAT. Give me one HOF ballplayer on those defenses. I have never seen a QB do so much with so little

The "Who's the best QB" can go on and on, all with valid arguments. I think if the Pats win on Sunday, Brady can easily be considered the most accomplished QB in the SB era, hands down
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:29 AM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,861,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep It Simple View Post
Give me one HOF ballplayer on those defenses. I have never seen a QB do so much with so little
Wilfork is probably first ballot HOF. I think he only played in their 3rd super bowl though. That may have been his rookie year.

I agree though, besides Revis, who is playing his first season this year with the Pats, he is probably the only HOFer.

They did have some very good defensive players though with Law, Milloy, McGinnest, Asante Samuel, Vrabel and Harrison. Harrison might have an outside shot of the HOF someday. Not sure.

Some people thought that Bruschi was pretty good. In my eyes he was more average though. Starter worthy but not good.
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Old 01-30-2015, 08:41 AM
 
1,069 posts, read 555,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Wilfork is probably first ballot HOF. I think he only played in their 3rd super bowl though. That may have been his rookie year.

I agree though, besides Revis, who is playing his first season this year with the Pats, he is probably the only HOFer.

They did have some very good defensive players though with Law, Milloy, McGinnest, Asante Samuel, Vrabel and Harrison. Harrison might have an outside shot of the HOF someday. Not sure.

Some people thought that Bruschi was pretty good. In my eyes he was more average though. Starter worthy but not good.
Bill, agree, I think Revis and Wilfork will be in HOF. My point was when they won, they didn't have all these guys lined up for Canton. I never understood why Brady gets so much hate and people want to use the Pats defense as an argument against how good Brady is. Montana and Young played on SF teams with really good defenses. Staubach and Aikman had really good Cowboy defenses. Bradshaw, we don't even have to mention how good the Pitts defense was. Most (not all) all time great QB's played on teams with really good defenses. I guess the argument against that is Fouts and P Manning, which is true. I would argue to look at their playoff records.
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:35 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
13,223 posts, read 17,975,432 times
Reputation: 14673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep It Simple View Post
Cowboy fan here....Loved Staubach, White, Aikman

I look at Bradshaw and he played with 11 HOF players. Great QB, but he had a lot of help. Montana had Rice and he also played with 2 borderline HOF players in Craig and Clark

I look at what Brady had to play with. When he had Moss, he put up monster numbers. When he won SB's, he had journeyman receivers at best. Corey Dillion was a good back, far from great. I hear people talk about the Pats defense when they won and each year that goes by, the defense gets better and better (like an old fishermans tale). Those defenses were good defenses, they were nowhere near GREAT. Give me one HOF ballplayer on those defenses. I have never seen a QB do so much with so little

The "Who's the best QB" can go on and on, all with valid arguments. I think if the Pats win on Sunday, Brady can easily be considered the most accomplished QB in the SB era, hands down
Terry Bradshaw did not play with 11 Hall-of-Famers. He played with eight: Mel Blount, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Franco Harris, Jack Lambert, John Stallworth, Lynn Swann and Mike Webster. Bart Starr played with more Hall-of-Famers than Bradshaw did.
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Old 01-30-2015, 12:16 PM
 
1,069 posts, read 555,990 times
Reputation: 1456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
Terry Bradshaw did not play with 11 Hall-of-Famers. He played with eight: Mel Blount, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Franco Harris, Jack Lambert, John Stallworth, Lynn Swann and Mike Webster. Bart Starr played with more Hall-of-Famers than Bradshaw did.
My bad, ok, he played with 8....was that your only point?
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