U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Pro Football
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:24 AM
 
6,489 posts, read 3,478,911 times
Reputation: 10281

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatty MacButter View Post
True to point? The point is it's cheating. Metalmancpa, I know you are hurting over this, and have conflicting feelings.
Sorry - I will get away from semantics. From the dictionary I agree, it's cheating plain and simple. I guess instead I look at it from it's level. Sure I'm hurt as a fan. I am not a homer fan of any sport who will blindly stand behind my team just because I'm a fan of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by convextech View Post
Wasn't he gambling on his own games? And thus had a hand in the outcome? That's even worse than cheating, it's traitorous.
I believe although he was betting on his own games, there was no evidence found that he as one player ever tried to change the outcome of any game. And I believe that.

 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,440 posts, read 4,200,813 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by convextech View Post
Wasn't he gambling on his own games? And thus had a hand in the outcome? That's even worse than cheating, it's traitorous.
I don't think they were ever able to prove he did anything to affect the outcome of a game. That's what makes his punishment too severe in my opinion.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:26 AM
 
Location: AZ
2,041 posts, read 3,227,700 times
Reputation: 3439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep It Simple View Post
Gixxer, please take my post as a debate, not "arguing". 1 or 3 out of 12 is acceptable, but 11 isn't? Isn't cheating all the same, no matter the amount? Now you just want to assume it's all on Brady, with absolutely no proof....Let me paint this scenario, you tell me if it's plausible. Let's assume for a minute that Brady likes the ball as soft as possible, that is allowed by league rules. He tells his equipment manager to make all the balls at 12.5 psi....the equipment manager takes too much out, or his gauge is off. My point is that you just can't assume that Brady arranged to purposely manipulate these footballs. Isn't that a bit of a reach?

I understand what you're trying to say but also do you think that someone like Brady,a hall of fame qb, doesn't know and can't feel the difference? Also,once someone has already been proven to cheat the odds are more likely they'll do it again. Personally I think he wants to get back to the SB knowing it may be his last chance ever and if they got away with deflating balls once and a while through the season and possibly the Ravens game why not push it one more time. Think about it,doing during reg season isn't as big deal as the playoffs but it's still cheating. If they get caught not to many people would be making this much fuss over it as they are now. I'm not condoning this but just saying that the NFC Championship game is huge and is a much bigger deal than if it had happened reg season.

Once you have that black cloud over your head it never goes away. All their records,stats and so on are now in question. If you're husband/wife cheated on you and you caught them would you believe this only happened once,or would you always question they did it before and only got caught once?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:31 AM
 
321 posts, read 225,226 times
Reputation: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzincat View Post
Breaking a rule on one play is breaking the rule(s). Sometimes they get caught, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they get flagged when not breaking the rules. It's not a perfect situation. We cannot do without having refs on hand, either way. The refs do the best they can and deal out penalties on a case by case basis.

Intentionally breaking a rule for a whole game or multiple games is cheating. The refs in this case to not deal out the penalties beyond any one instance. The NFL has to step in.

So breaking the rules on one play is breaking the rules, but for an entire game, it is cheating?

If a coach teaches its players to hold in a way where they can't be seen by a ref (which we know is taught, sometimes they just don't get away with it) has that gone from breaking the rules to cheating because it is systemic?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:40 AM
 
4,294 posts, read 1,867,409 times
Reputation: 2363
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustelid1971 View Post
So breaking the rules on one play is breaking the rules, but for an entire game, it is cheating?

If a coach teaches its players to hold in a way where they can't be seen by a ref (which we know is taught, sometimes they just don't get away with it) has that gone from breaking the rules to cheating because it is systemic?
There is no difference between breaking the rules and cheating IMO. They are the same thing. Holding is breaking the rules and cheating. Same with deflating balls. The grey area is cheating sort of implies purposeful intent. Breaking the rules could be accidental or simply reactionary in the case of hitting a receiver before the ball arrives. None the less, if a rule is broken it is in a sense cheating.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,440 posts, read 4,200,813 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustelid1971 View Post
So breaking the rules on one play is breaking the rules, but for an entire game, it is cheating?

If a coach teaches its players to hold in a way where they can't be seen by a ref (which we know is taught, sometimes they just don't get away with it) has that gone from breaking the rules to cheating because it is systemic?
That is why the refs are there doing their job. Why do you think some games have so many holding calls in them. If players on a team keep holding after they get called on it and continue to get penalized, then the team will probably lose the game. In this case they may be teaching them how to break the rules, but I would categorize it as dirty players as opposed to cheating. It's a matter of degrees.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:42 AM
 
321 posts, read 225,226 times
Reputation: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
There is no difference between breaking the rules and cheating IMO. They are the same thing. Holding is breaking the rules and cheating. Same with deflating balls. The grey area is cheating sort of implies purposeful intent. Breaking the rules could be accidental or simply reactionary in the case of hitting a receiver before the ball arrives. None the less, if a rule is broken it is in a sense cheating.

So a team where the players used PEDS (undoubtedly every NFL and major (and minor) college football team) are all cheating?

Ok. I'm fine with definitions, as long as they're consistent. I have no problem saying every team cheats, I think they do.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:44 AM
 
321 posts, read 225,226 times
Reputation: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzincat View Post
That is why the refs are there doing their job. Why do you think some games have so many holding calls ion them. If players on a team keep holding after they get called on it and continue to get penalized, then the team will probably lose the game. In this case they may be teaching them how to break the rules, but I would categorize it as dirty players as opposed to cheating. It's a matter of degrees.

They get more holding calls because they're less adept at breaking the rules and they got caught.

Where do the degrees separate?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,440 posts, read 4,200,813 times
Reputation: 5729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
There is no difference between breaking the rules and cheating IMO. They are the same thing. Holding is breaking the rules and cheating. Same with deflating balls. The grey area is cheating sort of implies purposeful intent. Breaking the rules could be accidental or simply reactionary in the case of hitting a receiver before the ball arrives. None the less, if a rule is broken it is in a sense cheating.
What Bill says, I agree with. The difference can be cheating or systematic cheating.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:46 AM
 
Location: New England
186 posts, read 265,450 times
Reputation: 229
Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
To me, Spy Gate brings up different thoughts. There was a lot reported back then concerning taping. Most had to do with signal calling because that is what the Patriots got busted for but there were several reports that the Patriot had recorded the Rams practice sessions prior to Super Bowl XXXVI. This was never proven so it mostly gets forgotten but many of the Rams players still believe this is true.. players which you put more credence in than media or fans. Now I don't know if they did video tape the Rams practice or not but every time something like this comes out about the Patriots it adds more weight to the idea that yea, the probably did tape the Rams practice before Super Bowl XXXVI.

I remember this game well. I had gone to a party watch this game but ended up leaving fairly early and finished watching the game at a friends home. We were both pulling hard for the Patriots because they were big under dogs and Brady was still relatively unknown. Great game, great ending, sad retrospect.
I know the spirit of this thread is to talk about cheating in general, rather than specifics, but I think we also need to address the hysteria about the Patriots cheating history. If, for instance, the Denver Broncos had been accused of deflating footballs, does anybody believe the outcry would be even half as great as the outcry against the Patriots?

OP, you bring up the rumor that Patriots taped the Rams walk through prior to Super Bowl XXXVI. Do you realize that this came from a Boston Herald article accusing the Patriots of that, but there was never any proof of it. The Boston Herald had to print a retraction and apology because they flat out printed incorrect accusations.

I am a Patriots fan from back in the days when they were mostly terrible in the 70s and early 80s, and like a lot of other people I'm troubled by the current controversy. I'm troubled because it reflects badly on my team, I'm troubled by the thought the Patriots actually cheated, but I'm also troubled because it seems there is a rush to judgement when nobody really knows all the facts right now.

Let's let this play out and see what the evidence shows before making our own judgements of the situation.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Pro Football
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top