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Old 01-22-2015, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzincat View Post
That is why the refs are there doing their job. Why do you think some games have so many holding calls in them. If players on a team keep holding after they get called on it and continue to get penalized, then the team will probably lose the game. In this case they may be teaching them how to break the rules, but I would categorize it as dirty players as opposed to cheating. It's a matter of degrees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustelid1971 View Post
They get more holding calls because they're less adept at breaking the rules and they got caught.

Where do the degrees separate?
The problem with on the field penalties is they are subjective calls by the officials. To what degree I suppose depends on the egregious nature of the act. Pass interference as we generally know it is not cheating to me. But what about a deliberate blow to the head where is looks like one player is trying to hurt another? Is that cheating due to it's nature?

By strict terms cheating is dishonesty, deceit. Teaching someone to hold a ball in a way for the refs not to see it is deceit and cheating by definition. But the word cheat is also a marker, a bucket, a label.

I guess as a fan I look at cheating to the degrees you mention. I don't mind cheating in terminology if it's been allowed into the fabric of the sport by the sport itself. But if games are being fixed, or a true competitive advantage is had due to cheating, then I begin to have issue with it.

 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:51 AM
 
Location: AZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaIceman View Post
I know the spirit of this thread is to talk about cheating in general, rather than specifics, but I think we also need to address the hysteria about the Patriots cheating history. If, for instance, the Denver Broncos had been accused of deflating footballs, does anybody believe the outcry would be even half as great as the outcry against the Patriots?

OP, you bring up the rumor that Patriots taped the Rams walk through prior to Super Bowl XXXVI. Do you realize that this came from a Boston Herald article accusing the Patriots of that, but there was never any proof of it. The Boston Herald had to print a retraction and apology because they flat out printed incorrect accusations.

I am a Patriots fan from back in the days when they were mostly terrible in the 70s and early 80s, and like a lot of other people I'm troubled by the current controversy. I'm troubled because it reflects badly on my team, I'm troubled by the thought the Patriots actually cheated, but I'm also troubled because it seems there is a rush to judgement when nobody really knows all the facts right now.

Let's let this play out and see what the evidence shows before making our own judgements of the situation.
You're right no one knows the true facts but there's one thing that is a fact. It wasn't the Colts and it wasn't the refs who intentionally deflated 11 footballs so who does that leave?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,459 posts, read 4,207,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustelid1971 View Post
They get more holding calls because they're less adept at breaking the rules and they got caught.

Where do the degrees separate?
The difference is that players will push the limits and if they keep getting caught they stop.(edit: Or the coach removes them from the game) That is why the refs are there.

Modifying equipment outside allowable limits to gain an advantage is different altogether. Semantics? Probably.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:00 AM
 
6,502 posts, read 3,484,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaIceman View Post
I know the spirit of this thread is to talk about cheating in general, rather than specifics, but I think we also need to address the hysteria about the Patriots cheating history. If, for instance, the Denver Broncos had been accused of deflating footballs, does anybody believe the outcry would be even half as great as the outcry against the Patriots?

OP, you bring up the rumor that Patriots taped the Rams walk through prior to Super Bowl XXXVI. Do you realize that this came from a Boston Herald article accusing the Patriots of that, but there was never any proof of it. The Boston Herald had to print a retraction and apology because they flat out printed incorrect accusations.

I am a Patriots fan from back in the days when they were mostly terrible in the 70s and early 80s, and like a lot of other people I'm troubled by the current controversy. I'm troubled because it reflects badly on my team, I'm troubled by the thought the Patriots actually cheated, but I'm also troubled because it seems there is a rush to judgement when nobody really knows all the facts right now.

Let's let this play out and see what the evidence shows before making our own judgements of the situation.
I too am a Patriots fan and go back to the Plunkett days. When accusations of cheating happen in any sport, I do not like to pass judgement based on initial reports from the media or fans until some sort of official investigation has been done and a report has been issued. Even then I think about it. In the NFL's case, with so much money at stake, there "could" be an agenda in how to deal with this. Even with the other owners as part of the NFL, Goodell has a business to run, and when cheating hits it tarnishes the product.

What discourages me about this particular cheating is the tarnishment of what really is a dynasty, and the legacy of two greats in the game. Most fans who know football (and I am not speaking as a Pats fan whether you believe that or not) know Brady and Belichick have earned their legacy's, and know these scandals they get themselves into is more a product of pure stupidity than creating all of the wins over their history that got them there. It is well documented all teams and players do something (cheating, edge, whatever), so in that regard the playing field gets leveled somewhat.

But to my OP, the real hurt is as much about the perception of others taking these particular incidents and magnifying them and blowing them up much bigger then they are. I mentioned Ray Rice before. I know that isn't cheating, but that issue in the NFL is tenfold worse than the Patriots issues.

Cheating is never right, so any Patriots fan that just thinks everyone else are just blind haters are probably right, but also very wrong. Cheating is about integrity, and that is most important.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:02 AM
 
6,502 posts, read 3,484,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer1K View Post
You're right no one knows the true facts but there's one thing that is a fact. It wasn't the Colts and it wasn't the refs who intentionally deflated 11 footballs so who does that leave?
Thing is, right now we don't have any facts, which is the problem here. Everyone jumps to conclusions. In the end, part of the accusations are probably true. But until we find out the who and why, if we ever really do, the anger that cheating does to fans sets them off on a tirade and logic goes out the window.

I blame outsider fans but blame homey fans just as much.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:06 AM
 
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This is actually a decent article from the Boston Globe on cheating and one of the important issues surrounding it

What can I tell my kids about Deflategate? - Lifestyle - The Boston Globe
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:07 AM
 
321 posts, read 225,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
But if games are being fixed, or a true competitive advantage is had due to cheating, then I begin to have issue with it.

So piping music into a stadium (which has been done in some domes) when the opponent is on offense, would be considered cheating to you?

Some would call it gamesmanship.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:10 AM
 
6,502 posts, read 3,484,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustelid1971 View Post
So piping music into a stadium (which has been done in some domes) when the opponent is on offense, would be considered cheating to you?

Some would call it gamesmanship.
I know. This is the problem with the issue of cheating. Once you dig into the act and get away from the definition, what is it really? I don't even know, but was there a rule about this in the NFL? I didn't have issue with the Colts doing that to the Patriots for what you call gamesmanship, or competitive edge. They just made it loud and harder for the Pats offense to call plays.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,459 posts, read 4,207,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustelid1971 View Post
So piping music into a stadium (which has been done in some domes) when the opponent is on offense, would be considered cheating to you?

Some would call it gamesmanship.
Are there instances of this happening? Every time I heard the music they turned it off as both offenses approached the line of scrimmage.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:24 AM
 
321 posts, read 225,436 times
Reputation: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzincat View Post
Are there instances of this happening? Every time I heard the music they turned it off as both offenses approached the line of scrimmage.

Yes. The music is turned down, usually, I should have said the sound is turned up. What was piped in is extra crowd noise to make the crowd sound louder. The colts used to do this at the RCA dome, I believe they were the only ones actually caught. It was a big issue 7-8 years ago. There are others accused of it as well.

It is part of "home field advantage"

Seahawks and Cowboys also accused of this. No doubt many teams have done it.
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