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Old 01-21-2015, 09:51 PM
 
6,502 posts, read 3,482,863 times
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I'm posting this in this section because the NFL is the biggest sports business in the world, and it has seen it's share of controversy in recent years. I hope the moderators don't delete or move this, because I don't want this to be a discussion focusing on the direct incidents, but more a discussion about the effect of sports cheating as you envision it. Please refrain from hate and cheater comments. I understand the anger people have when your team or person has been cheated on by another in the world of sports, and it's easy to jump into an argument and point fingers. But I'm writing this from the inside of this scandal as a Patriots fan, and a fan of sports.

Look. Maybe I'm one of the few die hard Patriots fan who isn't a homer standing waving a flag saying horsesh*t to everyone, because I'm not.

I am a confused and angry fan right now. But even with Spy Gate before, there are almost as many unanswered questions as there are supposed answered ones to this ball issue. The word cheat has been thrown at the Patriots feet since Spy Gate. I'm not naive enough to not think rules have been broken more than the two times the Pats have been caught. I'm also not naive enough to think they are the only team that has cheated. But that doesn't matter, because one cheat doesn't nullify another.

I understand the Madden angle, because I too believe probably the only Patriot that could possibly know the feel of the ball would be off was Brady. But right now, stories are leaking out with the NFL's investigation being complete and the report made public. So me, you, the media - claims are all conjecture. And even after the NFL's report is issued, I believe they have an agenda driven by money, so I wouldn't lay 100% stock in their findings.

In my opinion a full scale investigation of the Patriots should happen independent of league control. I would love to hear past Pats players come out of the woodwork and spew their knowledge. I would honestly like to know the REAL truth - the who, the why, the motive. Fans (me included) are just watching stupid entertainment that we happen to love, so we get all caught up in it.

I was devastated when the Lance Armstrong story came out. At least in the end he fessed up, but the hurt was there. He was a hero, beating cancer and winning. It hurt. I also love sprinting in the Olympics. Ben Johnson and Marion Jones hurt me too. And with all of this taint, how do you look at the rest and think maybe they're not cheating? Is it possible Mohammed Ali cheated in some way to be so dominant? How about the undefeated Miami Dolphins back in the day? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but this sport cheating just lays doubt everywhere and in my mind tarnishes all of it with doubt. It's sad.

There is a much more important story to tell other than the stories themselves, something bigger than the individual cheating incidents that have occurred throughout sports forever. The morals behind the stories are important, and lessens should be taught and learned from sports - the Patriots scandals, baseball player juicing, Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson/Marion Jones and other Olympians, the Black Sox - a very short list in a long list of sports cheating. Just because sports is "only entertainment" doesn't necessarily make the issue in sports one of indifference. But other than the world of betting, this is almost comical as compared to the other REAL realities of this world as what harm is really done other than a feeling inside and maybe money you spent on a shirt or tickets to a team that disappoints you. War and poverty and politics are things that truly affect MY life. What about cheating in the real world? How about Bernie Madoff and the $18 billion he took from people? That's cheating that hits home directly for many people, not this sports cheating where everyone gets their bowels in an uproar because it's "their" team. That's the cheating that matters, because with sports I can just turn off the TV and not buy tickets or jerseys and not support sports.

If I can really think of a saying specific to the Patriots, my favorite sports team, and actually for all of sports:

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me

 
Old 01-21-2015, 10:20 PM
 
4,310 posts, read 1,869,124 times
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The thing about cheating, whether it is in sport or the real world, the penalties have to be stiff. If you start to give an inch, they will take a mile. You also have to be fair and consistent across the board.
 
Old 01-21-2015, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,459 posts, read 4,205,017 times
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At least Pete Rose never actually was caught doing anything other than gambling. He never cheated the game itself. Should the guilty parties in this be any less responsible?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 04:09 AM
 
6,502 posts, read 3,482,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
The thing about cheating, whether it is in sport or the real world, the penalties have to be stiff. If you start to give an inch, they will take a mile. You also have to be fair and consistent across the board.
I don't disagree. Even though it's "just sports", people watch including kids. I have read much hate here in New England for years, and when people bring up about teaching your kids values, that's why I agree with you. If penalties aren't stiff, then what's the message - cheating isn't that bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzincat View Post
At least Pete Rose never actually was caught doing anything other than gambling. He never cheated the game itself. Should the guilty parties in this be any less responsible?
This is different guilt, which I assume unlike the Black Sox, the game itself was not affected. But if rules stipulate no gambling which isn't cheating, still a lessen about breaking the rules is there. With Rose, I do not think the penalty fit the crime.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 04:22 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,618,335 times
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I'm not a Patriots fan, so I have no dog in this fight. What they did was a clear violation of the rules, and there ought to be sanctions for it - and there no doubt will be penalties of some kind.

In my mind, it's always been simple: whether we're talking about PEDs, spitballs, pine tar, deflated footballs, flopping in the NBA - whatever...it's up to the league to discourage such behavior through appropriate penalties. Players and coaches are always going to try to gain an edge - they're competitors. It's up to the league officials to make clear consequences so that competitors can factor it into the overall costs/benefits analysis of cheating. As I said, these were costs that Belichick and Brady knew and were willing to pay in exchange for an edge.

But an edge in and of itself probably doesn't mean much when the team that lost got beat 45-7. The Ravens? Maybe they have a legitimate complaint. Something for the league to think about.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 08:05 AM
 
16,534 posts, read 21,023,664 times
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I'll be dm'ing the op to advise him that I'll reword the title to to this thread a little bit as I've made this thread a *sticky*. The other thread has been closed. 197 responses gave people plenty of time respond. One thread per subject.

As the OP states, level headed honest commentary is encouraged. Snarky one liners are not.
 
Old 01-22-2015, 08:08 AM
 
1,069 posts, read 557,566 times
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I am not a Pats fan, so they are not "my team". What I find humorous are the comments on some of the other pages, essentially saying "well it really didn't matter vs the Colts, but it was wrong against the Ravens". Is the mindset then we don't care about cheating if you win by 38, but if you only win by 4, then we have an issue? My other issue are all the absolutes that are being thrown around......"THERE IS NO ROOM IN OUR SPORT FOR CHEATING"....really? So the Pats should be harshly dealt with and Brady and Belicheck punished. Oh wait, there is no proof that it was them, but aw hell, we don't need proof....just a scenario, when a receiver traps a ball, and comes up trying to sell it as a catch, is that cheating? Should he say "Mr official, i trapped that ball, please rule it incomplete" How about when an offensive lineman holds a pass rusher and it doesn't get called. The play goes for a 70 yard TD. Is it the expectation that the lineman turns around to the ref and says "sir, you need to drop a flag on that play, I held #78"....I mean if he doesn't do that, he is cheating, right?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 08:36 AM
 
Location: AZ
2,041 posts, read 3,228,824 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep It Simple View Post
I am not a Pats fan, so they are not "my team". What I find humorous are the comments on some of the other pages, essentially saying "well it really didn't matter vs the Colts, but it was wrong against the Ravens". Is the mindset then we don't care about cheating if you win by 38, but if you only win by 4, then we have an issue? My other issue are all the absolutes that are being thrown around......"THERE IS NO ROOM IN OUR SPORT FOR CHEATING"....really? So the Pats should be harshly dealt with and Brady and Belicheck punished. Oh wait, there is no proof that it was them, but aw hell, we don't need proof....just a scenario, when a receiver traps a ball, and comes up trying to sell it as a catch, is that cheating? Should he say "Mr official, i trapped that ball, please rule it incomplete" How about when an offensive lineman holds a pass rusher and it doesn't get called. The play goes for a 70 yard TD. Is it the expectation that the lineman turns around to the ref and says "sir, you need to drop a flag on that play, I held #78"....I mean if he doesn't do that, he is cheating, right?

I think the whole "well it really didn't matter vs the Colts,but it was wrong against the Ravens" thing is if they were cheating all along,then the Ravens game was tarnished too and that outcome only being 4 points, makes a huge difference now.

As of right now the proof is there were 11 out of 12 balls deflated,not 1 or 3 but 11. There really is only one person responsible for this and that's Brady. There's no one on any team especially a team playing in a championship game that's going to mess with the qb's ball. Every qb out there is very particular about their football,all the balls used are not "brand new" they've been scuffed to get excess waxes off and used by the qb's in warm ups to make sure they're good enough for the game. The balls are then given to officials before each game for inspection and as long as nothings been "tampered" with all 12 go back the the team. So no way in hell would a ball boy tamper with these and even if they did,the only person who'd know this would be the qb, Brady in this instance. Anything that gives a team an advantage that's not regulation is cheating. If it had been my team sure I'd hate to think they'd lower themselves to this and I wouldn't like it but I'd still be mad as hell!

On another note Richard Sherman brought up a really good point. The NFL would've barred Lynch for playing with gold shoes in the NFC championship game so why is this infraction any different than what the Pats did? Someone,Brady,should be suspended for this as this is much worse than wearing gold shoes. I guess the NFL cares more about appearance than cheating.

Last edited by Gixxer1K; 01-22-2015 at 08:56 AM..
 
Old 01-22-2015, 08:57 AM
 
1,069 posts, read 557,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer1K View Post
I think the whole "well it really didn't matter vs the Colts,but it was wrong against the Ravens" thing is if they were cheating all along,then the Ravens game was tarnished too and that outcome only being 4 points, makes a huge difference now.

As of right now the proof is there were 11 out of 12 balls deflated,not 1 or 3 but 11. There really is only one person responsible for this and that's Brady. There's no one on any team especially a team playing in a championship game that's going to mess with the qb's ball. Every qb out there is very particular about their football,all the balls used are not "brand new" they've been scuffed to get excess waxes off and used by the qb's in warm ups to make sure they're good enough for the game. The balls are then given to officials before each game for inspection and as long as nothings been "tampered" with all 12 go back the the team. So no way in hell would a ball boy tamper with these and even if they did,the only person who'd know this would be the qb, Brady in this instance. Anything that gives a team an advantage that's not regulation is cheating. If it had been my team sure I'd hate to think they'd lower themselves to this and I wouldn't like it but I'd still be mad as hell!
Gixxer, please take my post as a debate, not "arguing". 1 or 3 out of 12 is acceptable, but 11 isn't? Isn't cheating all the same, no matter the amount? Now you just want to assume it's all on Brady, with absolutely no proof....Let me paint this scenario, you tell me if it's plausible. Let's assume for a minute that Brady likes the ball as soft as possible, that is allowed by league rules. He tells his equipment manager to make all the balls at 12.5 psi....the equipment manager takes too much out, or his gauge is off. My point is that you just can't assume that Brady arranged to purposely manipulate these footballs. Isn't that a bit of a reach?
 
Old 01-22-2015, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
6,459 posts, read 4,205,017 times
Reputation: 5737
If I had "invested" my money in a team in the form of buying jerseys, tickets, overpriced concessions, because the team was doing well and I found out the reason they were doing so well was that they were cheating, I would be upset.

Let's face it, the better a team does the more support it gets, financially. That support ultimately comes from the fans.
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