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Old 02-02-2015, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
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Obviously there is a question because he is not in yet... don't blame me or Bettis, blame the voters. Maybe you can convince them that 3 great years, 1 good year and 3 forgettable years are HOF worthy..
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,943 posts, read 19,166,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Obviously there is a question because he is not in yet... don't blame me or Bettis, blame the voters. Maybe you can convince them that 3 great years, 1 good year and 3 forgettable years are HOF worthy..
I'm definitely blaming the voters, but we've known that they were idiots for years now.
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Old 02-02-2015, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Currently living in Reddit
5,655 posts, read 5,705,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
What are you even talking about? There is no question TD deserves to be in on his merits, just as there is no question that he should have gone in before Bettis did.

I don't see the injury issue as relevant. TD played long enough and at a high enough level to establish himself as worthy.

Besides, Gale Sayers is in the Hall and he only had one more season of elite play than Davis before injuries took him out. Davis has the postseason accolades and Super Bowl/League MVP to even it out. It's pretty much impossible to make an argument for Sayers being in but not Davis.
Gale Sayers was the Barry Sanders of his day. He was going to get his yards regardless what team he was on. Terrell Davis was just another RB (albeit a good one) in a Denver system that got more than 1,000 yards rushing each year from guys like Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Tatum Bell, Reuben Droughns. Clinton Portis was legit, but those other four... products of Shanahan's system.

The guy I'm surprised didn't get in was Orlando Pace. Even here in Pittsburgh, every sports pundit figured him a lock while most didn't think Bettis would get in - and some didn't think he deserved it.
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:28 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
13,223 posts, read 17,975,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
The Hall of Fame is supposed to be for the game's truly elite players. It isn't the "Hall of Pretty Good", and Bettis was never an elite back save for maybe that 1996-1997 stretch. He didn't break the 1000 yard barrier for the last four years of his career and only averaged >4.0 yards per carry 4 times in his career. Davis was a truly elite player who played his best football when it mattered most, with seven or eight 100 yard playoff games and a Super Bowl MVP and NFL MVP award.
Jerome Bettis was a First-Team All-Pro in 1993 and 1996, and a Second-Team All-Pro in 1997. You don't get awards like those without being elite. When he retired, he ranked in the top five all-time in rushing yards, and the top 10 all-time in TD runs. Until now, he was the only one of the eight RBs to currently rank in the top 10 all-time in both categories not to be in the Hall of Fame. Furthermore, he had legitimate chances at leading the NFL in rushing yards in 1993 and 2001, but lost it by 57 yards to Emmitt Smith in 1993 because the coaches didn't bother starting him the first four games of the season, and was sabotaged by injury in 2001 when he was on pace for 1,559 yards in 16 games -- four more than Priest Holmes and his league-high 1,555. Hell, Bettis was so dominant before his injury in 2001 that he still made the Pro Bowl despite missing the last five games of the regular season, and you bet your sweet little ass he would have been an All-Pro again that season if he stayed healthy. And if we're not going to hold injuries against Terrell Davis, then we're not going to hold them against Bettis either, especially considering he was a battering ram who took a lot of physical punishment.

Furthermore, the situations that Bettis and Terrell Davis were in couldn't be much more different. Davis had a Hall-of-Fame QB (John Elway), a Hall-of-Fame TE (Shannon Sharpe), a Hall-of-Fame LT (Gary Zimmerman), an imminent Hall-of-Fame C (Tom Nalen) and two pretty good WRs (Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey) with him on offense, and he played in a system that managed to make RBs like Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson and Rueben Droughns look good even without a superstar QB. On the other hand, Bettis had a Hall-of-Fame C (Dermontti Dawson) and an imminent Hall-of-Fame LG (Alan Faneca), but virtually nothing at the other skill positions on offense. As a result, he ran against a lot more stacked defensive fronts because opposing defenses didn't respect the passing game, and it's damn near impossible for a RB to maintain a high YPC when he's regularly facing at least eight in the box. Despite that, there was no RB more reliable at getting the tough yards than Bettis. Just ask Ray Lewis, Warren Sapp, Brian Urlacher, and any other defensive player he ever ran over.

Every opposing defense's game plan was to try to shut Bettis down and make the crappy QBs he played with win the games with their arms. It only seemed to work reliably in the playoffs. It didn't often work in the regular season. And if people want to complain that he ran for "only" 91 TDs, then it's worth remembering that Kordell Stewart ran for 32 TDs between 1997 and 2001, so Bettis would have easily had at least 100 TD runs with a more traditional QB not stealing so many TDs on the ground. As for "compiling" statistics, compilers don't run for 10,876 yards in nine seasons, especially when they only play 136 out of 144 possible games. Bettis averaged 80.0 rushing yards per game in his first nine seasons, which is excellent. And he did that despite Rich Brooks foolishly trying to convert him to a FB in 1995. If not for that, it's likely that Bettis would have had nine consecutive seasons with at least 1,000 rushing yards.

Quite frankly, Bettis is the only reason the Steelers even had anything resembling an offense between 1996 and 2001, after Neil O'Donnell left and before that fluke season by Tommy Maddox. He carried the load marvelously, and he was hard to stop even when he was the only good skill-position player the Steelers had. He's the last great "big" back, and it's funny how so many people are suddenly pretending that he wasn't great, especially considering he was so often brought up to discredit Ben Roethlisberger's early accomplishments. Then again, that's the game people play when judging great Steelers: play them off each other and claim that they're all overrated because of all the awesome players around them, who are then labeled overrated themselves when taken individually. You know, Player A is overrated because B, C and D were awesome; Player B is overrated because A, C and D were awesome; Player C is overrated because A, B and D were awesome; Player D is overrated because A, B and C were awesome, et cetera, ad nauseum. And it never ends. I honestly lose track of which great Steelers' careers to completely discredit sometimes.

Plain and simple, Jerome Bettis belongs in the Hall of Fame. He got in earlier than I thought he would, but that doesn't mean he's undeserving of the honor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Tony Dungy should have gotten in. I think he's underrated as a coach, and maybe doesn't get the genius label that Belichik and Bill Walsh did. However, when you look at his body of work, what was Tampa Bay before Dungy got there?
What's Tony Dungy ever done that Bill Cowher hasn't, aside from getting hired by a team that had Peyton Manning at QB?
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:36 PM
 
9,623 posts, read 4,612,445 times
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If Davis gets in (7607 yds), you would almost have to put Larry Johnson(6223 yds) and Priest Holmes(8173 yds) in. Very similar careers. And I don't see how that could happen. In Holmes first 6 years he had almost the exact same yds that Davis had in his 6 years. And I don't think that Johnson or Holmes should be in. The Hall is getting watered down.
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Old 02-03-2015, 02:15 PM
 
1,069 posts, read 555,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
If Davis gets in (7607 yds), you would almost have to put Larry Johnson(6223 yds) and Priest Holmes(8173 yds) in. Very similar careers. And I don't see how that could happen. In Holmes first 6 years he had almost the exact same yds that Davis had in his 6 years. And I don't think that Johnson or Holmes should be in. The Hall is getting watered down.
you are leaving out 2 SB rings, a SB MVP and an NFL MVP.Johnson and Holmes don't have those accolades
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:28 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,611,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
What's Tony Dungy ever done that Bill Cowher hasn't, aside from getting hired by a team that had Peyton Manning at QB?
Bill Cowher deserves to be in the Hall - I don't know where that argument came from. I'm just saying that Dungy deserves to be in the Hall, not that Cowher doesn't deserve to be in the Hall. Both extremely good coaches who built foundations upon which teams established consistent excellence. I wouldn't put either of them in the category of Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, or Bill Belichick, but they're probably just a little short of Bill Parcells or Joe Gibbs.
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,943 posts, read 19,166,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sskink View Post
Gale Sayers was the Barry Sanders of his day. He was going to get his yards regardless what team he was on. Terrell Davis was just another RB (albeit a good one) in a Denver system that got more than 1,000 yards rushing each year from guys like Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Tatum Bell, Reuben Droughns. Clinton Portis was legit, but those other four... products of Shanahan's system.
That's my point though. Davis and Portis were the only ones to be elite players in that system. Anderson had an elite year in that system in 2000 but didn't rush for 1000 yards again until 2005. Gary and Droughns had good but not great years.

I don't think anyone who knows football could question whether Davis would have excelled in another scheme.

Quote:
]The guy I'm surprised didn't get in was Orlando Pace. Even here in Pittsburgh, every sports pundit figured him a lock while most didn't think Bettis would get in - and some didn't think he deserved it.
Pace should definitely be in.
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,943 posts, read 19,166,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
Jerome Bettis was a First-Team All-Pro in 1993 and 1996, and a Second-Team All-Pro in 1997. You don't get awards like those without being elite.
So like I said originally, two...maybe three elite years in a 13 year career.

Quote:
When he retired, he ranked in the top five all-time in rushing yards, and the top 10 all-time in TD runs. Until now, he was the only one of the eight RBs to currently rank in the top 10 all-time in both categories not to be in the Hall of Fame. Furthermore, he had legitimate chances at leading the NFL in rushing yards in 1993 and 2001, but lost it by 57 yards to Emmitt Smith in 1993 because the coaches didn't bother starting him the first four games of the season, and was sabotaged by injury in 2001 when he was on pace for 1,559 yards in 16 games -- four more than Priest Holmes and his league-high 1,555. Hell, Bettis was so dominant before his injury in 2001 that he still made the Pro Bowl despite missing the last five games of the regular season, and you bet your sweet little ass he would have been an All-Pro again that season if he stayed healthy. And if we're not going to hold injuries against Terrell Davis, then we're not going to hold them against Bettis either, especially considering he was a battering ram who took a lot of physical punishment.
The cumulative stats don't mean a whole lot. You play long enough and you can accumulate that. They're a nice compliment to a truly elite player like Emmitt Smith or Barry Sanders, but mean little on their own.

The what if scenario about Bettis is reasonable enough, but we had seven players rush for more than 1300 yards in 2001, and two that went above 1500. Even if you assume that Bettis would have kept up that pace (history says he wouldn't have) it's questionable if he would have been one of the All Pro picks.

Quote:
Furthermore, the situations that Bettis and Terrell Davis were in couldn't be much more different. Davis had a Hall-of-Fame QB (John Elway), a Hall-of-Fame TE (Shannon Sharpe), a Hall-of-Fame LT (Gary Zimmerman), an imminent Hall-of-Fame C (Tom Nalen) and two pretty good WRs (Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey) with him on offense, and he played in a system that managed to make RBs like Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson and Rueben Droughns look good even without a superstar QB. On the other hand, Bettis had a Hall-of-Fame C (Dermontti Dawson) and an imminent Hall-of-Fame LG (Alan Faneca), but virtually nothing at the other skill positions on offense. As a result, he ran against a lot more stacked defensive fronts because opposing defenses didn't respect the passing game, and it's damn near impossible for a RB to maintain a high YPC when he's regularly facing at least eight in the box. Despite that, there was no RB more reliable at getting the tough yards than Bettis. Just ask Ray Lewis, Warren Sapp, Brian Urlacher, and any other defensive player he ever ran over.
If you watched any football, you'd know that EVERY running back was running against seven and eight man fronts in that area. The NFL then is not like it is now, and two deep safety looks were only really used as a base defense by the small handful of teams running the Tampa 2. Furthermore, the Broncos were always a run first team under Shanahan and even with the talent in the passing game that West Coast Offense did not throw deep passes that often, so they faced a lot of cover 1/3 looks with the strong safety in the box.

Quote:
Every opposing defense's game plan was to try to shut Bettis down and make the crappy QBs he played with win the games with their arms. It only seemed to work reliably in the playoffs. It didn't often work in the regular season. And if people want to complain that he ran for "only" 91 TDs, then it's worth remembering that Kordell Stewart ran for 32 TDs between 1997 and 2001, so Bettis would have easily had at least 100 TD runs with a more traditional QB not stealing so many TDs on the ground. As for "compiling" statistics, compilers don't run for 10,876 yards in nine seasons, especially when they only play 136 out of 144 possible games. Bettis averaged 80.0 rushing yards per game in his first nine seasons, which is excellent. And he did that despite Rich Brooks foolishly trying to convert him to a FB in 1995. If not for that, it's likely that Bettis would have had nine consecutive seasons with at least 1,000 rushing yards.

Quite frankly, Bettis is the only reason the Steelers even had anything resembling an offense between 1996 and 2001, after Neil O'Donnell left and before that fluke season by Tommy Maddox. He carried the load marvelously, and he was hard to stop even when he was the only good skill-position player the Steelers had. He's the last great "big" back, and it's funny how so many people are suddenly pretending that he wasn't great, especially considering he was so often brought up to discredit Ben Roethlisberger's early accomplishments. Then again, that's the game people play when judging great Steelers: play them off each other and claim that they're all overrated because of all the awesome players around them, who are then labeled overrated themselves when taken individually. You know, Player A is overrated because B, C and D were awesome; Player B is overrated because A, C and D were awesome; Player C is overrated because A, B and D were awesome; Player D is overrated because A, B and C were awesome, et cetera, ad nauseum. And it never ends. I honestly lose track of which great Steelers' careers to completely discredit sometimes.

Plain and simple, Jerome Bettis belongs in the Hall of Fame. He got in earlier than I thought he would, but that doesn't mean he's undeserving of the honor.
Everything you said about Bettis could be said a hundred times over about Davis. The Steelers never won a Super Bowl with Bettis as their starting running back (he was a broken down role player by the time 2005 rolled around) while the Broncos won two quite literally on the back of Davis. Bettis had three 100 yard performances in the playoffs, Davis had four in 1997 alone. Bettis ran for 674 yards in his postseason career. Davis ran for 1140 in the postseason, including 581 in 1997. Bettis scored 9 touchdowns in the postseason, Davis ran for 11 including 8 in 1997.

Like I said, putting Bettis in was questionable. Putting him in ahead of Davis is indefensible.
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Old 02-04-2015, 11:35 AM
 
5,364 posts, read 6,007,669 times
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There's too much politics involved in the HOF voting. TO is going to have to years because the media hates him
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