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Old 08-06-2015, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
9,349 posts, read 5,595,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBain II View Post
Hard to say. Wilson has been very good at what he's been asked to do and is exceedingly clutch, but I think it's perfectly fair to question how he would play if asked to put a team on his shoulders.

Only time can answer that question.
Good point. Wilson is only doing what he is asked to do. When you have a dominant defense and a dominant running back, you don't have to throw it 40+ times a game. I think that's why the term "game manager" gets thrown around at Wilson so often. Albeit he'd qualify as a very good game manager, if you look at what he's asked to do compared to other top QBs, the label kinda fits.

I'm just curious to see how Wilson will do if he's ever put in that position to take on more responsibility once Lynch retires and that defense becomes less dominant. He's never been asked to throw the ball as much as most "gunslinger" qbs do, I wonder how he'd perform in that role. as you said, only time will tell I guess.
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Old 08-06-2015, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Midwest USA
216 posts, read 154,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
You are confusing him doing what has been asked of him with not being very good (such as an Alex Smith). Wilson is much more talented than Smith and could do more but he plays within the game plan.
But that's my point man. Wilson plays "within the game plan" because the Seahawks don't ask that much of him. Like another poster already pointed out I would love to see how Wilson would play on a team like the Browns, Colts, Rams, etc. and see if he has the same amount of success. But yeah, that Smith comparison was pretty dumb on my part haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
I'd take Wilson over Andrew Luck all day long as he's proven he can pull off the big win in the big game. We aren't talking fantasy football here but actually winning games. Wilson is a proven winner, Luck is not.
Two things

1) Football is a team game. Just because the Seahawks have had a lot of success doesn't mean that Wilson single-handedly won those games. Here are some of Wilson's stats in the NFC championship game last year;

14/29, 209 yds, 1 TD, 4 INT's. That is atrocious. The Seahawks won despite of Wilson's terrible play, not because of it. Saying things like "Ohhhhh but Wilson is really clutch and has been to TWO superbowls and Luck hasn't so Wilson is better" is incredibly lazy analysis.

2) How is Luck not a proven winner? The Colts have a 33-15 record with him as the starting quarterback and two of the three games that the Colts have lost in the postseason have been to the eventual super bowl champions. What an absurd comment. Plus, the Colts rely heavily on offense rather then defense and Luck is asked too do much, much more then Wilson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
Speaking of lack of talent, aside from Lynch, who are all the All-Pros on the Seattle offense that Wilson has had to take the pressure off him? I mean just from looking it appears he's had a decent oline at times and some 2nd string WR's all the time and very little from the TE spot. I guess him somehow managing that to 2 Super Bowls isn't credit worthy? Imagine if he had an actual elite WR or TE as well during the past three seasons (he does now in Graham at least).

To say he's not talented basically shows you either can't see talent or are a fan of another team the Hawks will beat on their way to the playoffs this year too.
It's not that Wilson isn't talented, but he isn't talented enough to warrant such a big contract. I've said it before and I'll say it again; Wilson is a very good quarterback but the Seahawks are so great on defense that they are able to mask Wilson's deficiencies. The Seahawks rarely have to play catch up because they are so good at shutting down other teams on offense. By spending so much money on Wilson they aren't going to be able to re-sign some of those key guys on defense because of cap space. That's my main criticism of this deal.
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Old 08-06-2015, 06:58 PM
 
1,069 posts, read 558,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rarog View Post
Andrew Luck is still too much of an interception machine (against good teams anyway). Good QB, but hasn't gotten over the hump yet.
....what you posted is so off base, it barely deserves a response
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Mooresville, NC
2,150 posts, read 2,635,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post
But that's my point man. Wilson plays "within the game plan" because the Seahawks don't ask that much of him. Like another poster already pointed out I would love to see how Wilson would play on a team like the Browns, Colts, Rams, etc. and see if he has the same amount of success. But yeah, that Smith comparison was pretty dumb on my part haha.



Two things

1) Football is a team game. Just because the Seahawks have had a lot of success doesn't mean that Wilson single-handedly won those games. Here are some of Wilson's stats in the NFC championship game last year;

14/29, 209 yds, 1 TD, 4 INT's. That is atrocious. The Seahawks won despite of Wilson's terrible play, not because of it. Saying things like "Ohhhhh but Wilson is really clutch and has been to TWO superbowls and Luck hasn't so Wilson is better" is incredibly lazy analysis.
I have to assume you didn't actually watch that game as you just pointed out probably the game that actually made him that money this off-season. Wilson played poorly until the 4th quarter and OT. Go back and watch the game or at least read the box score. It's pure clutch, literally, you couldn't have picked a worse example to disprove what I'm saying about Wilson. lol Luck doesn't win that game, Manning doesn't win that game and Rodgers didn't win that game. Wilson won it. He ran for one TD, threw a 2 pt conversion and then threw the game winning TD in the span of about 10 minutes. The guy has ice water in his veins and stepped up huge when the team absolutely needed it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post
2) How is Luck not a proven winner? The Colts have a 33-15 record with him as the starting quarterback and two of the three games that the Colts have lost in the postseason have been to the eventual super bowl champions. What an absurd comment. Plus, the Colts rely heavily on offense rather then defense and Luck is asked too do much, much more then Wilson.
Luck got absolutely embarrassed by NE last year. When I say proven winner I mean winning the big game, not winning against a putrid schedule like what they had last season. Luck is a really good QB though and will put up monster stats this season. Heck, he's my dynasty league QB since he came into the league so I love him as a fantasy football player but if the game is on the line and we're in a 2 minute drill to win the Super Bowl I would choose Wilson over Luck every single time. Honestly, only Rodgers would even make me think twice.

Oh, and BTW, since you want to throw out wins, Russel Wilson also holds the record for most wins by a QB in their first three seasons, so there's that too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post
It's not that Wilson isn't talented, but he isn't talented enough to warrant such a big contract. I've said it before and I'll say it again; Wilson is a very good quarterback but the Seahawks are so great on defense that they are able to mask Wilson's deficiencies. The Seahawks rarely have to play catch up because they are so good at shutting down other teams on offense. By spending so much money on Wilson they aren't going to be able to re-sign some of those key guys on defense because of cap space. That's my main criticism of this deal.
That remains to be seen really. Seattle does have a great defense no doubt. But, it's not like their offense is just barely hanging on by a thread either. The Wilson led offense was 9th overall in the NFL last season in total offense. He had Lynch and himself last season plus a bunch of "who's that" type players around them supporting it so again, he didn't exactly have this crazy talent laden offense to begin with but still got it to 9th overall.

But, since you talk about Wilson's "deficiencies", please describe what you feel those are? I'm actually curious and not being sarcastic at all.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Mooresville, NC
2,150 posts, read 2,635,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBain II View Post
Hard to say. Wilson has been very good at what he's been asked to do and is exceedingly clutch, but I think it's perfectly fair to question how he would play if asked to put a team on his shoulders.

Only time can answer that question.
The NFC Championship game last season was a pretty good indicator of what he can do in that situation. He played awful for a good part of it but he put the team on his back and carried them to that win.

Honestly, having watched Wilson since his first college start I've seen this every step of the way. He's the type of player who learns everything and continues to just get better and better. He's not after stats or personal glory but focuses on the team. If the team needs him to manage his game and not make mistakes in order to win that's exactly what he'll do. Why risk INT's with ill advised passes if you do have a great defense behind you? Go three and out and live to the next series. He's a consummate pro and just has that "it" factor. But, if the team needs him to take over and push he is more than capable there too.
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Midwest USA
216 posts, read 154,151 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
I have to assume you didn't actually watch that game as you just pointed out probably the game that actually made him that money this off-season. Wilson played poorly until the 4th quarter and OT.
He played poorly (poorly is putting it mildly) for the majority of the game and the Seahawks were still in a position to win. I wonder why? Maybe the Seahawks can get away with Wilson playing like **** for 3+ quarters and still be within striking distance. No, that's ridiculous. It's not like football is a team sport. It all comes down to the play of the quarterback and no other variables can determine which team wins or loses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
Go back and watch the game or at least read the box score.
I watched the game and read the box score. I posted Wilson's stats in that game in my last comment....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
It's pure clutch, literally, you couldn't have picked a worse example to disprove what I'm saying about Wilson. lol Luck doesn't win that game, Manning doesn't win that game and Rodgers didn't win that game. Wilson won it.
The Seahawks were playing the Packers that game so Luck or Manning (not the Colts or Broncos because quarterbacks are the only players who determine the outcome of game) didn't win because they weren't participating. They play in the AFC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
That remains to be seen really. Seattle does have a great defense no doubt. But, it's not like their offense is just barely hanging on by a thread either. The Wilson led offense was 9th overall in the NFL last season in total offense. He had Lynch and himself last season plus a bunch of "who's that" type players around them supporting it so again, he didn't exactly have this crazy talent laden offense to begin with but still got it to 9th overall.
Just because the Seahawks were ranked 9th in overall offense doesn't mean that Wilson should be getting paid like an elite QB. They were 27th in passing yards and PYPG. The Raiders, Rams, and Buccaneers all had more passing yards per game. But Wilson is literally super clutch so it's difficult to argue with that logic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
But, since you talk about Wilson's "deficiencies", please describe what you feel those are? I'm actually curious and not being sarcastic at all.
I know you aren't being sarcastic. I'm going to explain my reasoning as to why I think Wilson is being overpaid for the last time. He can't carry a team like Luck, Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers can. The Seahawks don't ask Wilson to throw for 300+ yards in order to win games. They rely on defense, a great run game, and controlling the clock. The Hawks have been to the superbowl the past two years and have had a ton of success since Wilson was drafted, but that doesn't mean that he is an elite QB. Without guys like Richard Sherman, Bobby Wagner, Marshawn Lynch, Kam Chancellor, Earl Thomas etc. they would not be contenders every year. The Seahawks have been super bowl contenders the past three years and Wilson deserves some credit but he isn't in the same class as the guys I listed above.
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Old 08-06-2015, 11:55 PM
 
3,133 posts, read 1,279,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post
If Wilson is merely a game manager then why is such a big contract warranted? There isn't a lot expected out of him because the Seahawks defense is the best in the league. A game manager can't carry a team to the super bowl, just ask Alex Smith. Without an elite defense (and Lynch) Wilsons lack of talent will become exposed.



You would take Russell Wilson over Andrew Luck?
Oh, ab so frigggin' lutely....
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
9,349 posts, read 5,595,351 times
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as far as the "Seahawks were 9th in total offense" stat goes, you've got to look at the whole picture. The seahawks had the #1 total defense last year. That means that, Seattle D gets a lot of 3 and outs, with opponents punting deep in their own territory, and that means very good starting field position for Wilson. You have to factor that into the equation. Wilson and that Seattle offense probably have one of the best (if not thee best) average starting field position in the league. That's not even mentioning how many turnovers that Seattle D creates, often times giving Wilson the ball inside the opponent's side of the field.

Once again, it's not Wilson's fault that he has such a good defense, that he has a top 3 running back, and that he arguably plays in the #1 homefield advantage stadium in North America. But as a young QB, he couldn't have walked into a better situation, where there isn't much pressure on him to score 30+ points a game, because he has that beast of a defense, and a beast in the backfield.

If Wilson were the quarterback on any other team but Seattle, he's not the #2 highest paid QB in the NFL right now, because he hasn't won a superbowl.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Mooresville, NC
2,150 posts, read 2,635,186 times
Reputation: 1670
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post
He played poorly (poorly is putting it mildly) for the majority of the game and the Seahawks were still in a position to win. I wonder why? Maybe the Seahawks can get away with Wilson playing like **** for 3+ quarters and still be within striking distance. No, that's ridiculous. It's not like football is a team sport. It all comes down to the play of the quarterback and no other variables can determine which team wins or loses.
They were not within reasonable "striking distance" that late in the game against a very good team like Green Bay. It was 19-7 very late. Russel Wilson absolutely put them on his back late in the 4th quarter and OT and won that game. You honestly can't dispute that can you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post

Just because the Seahawks were ranked 9th in overall offense doesn't mean that Wilson should be getting paid like an elite QB. They were 27th in passing yards and PYPG. The Raiders, Rams, and Buccaneers all had more passing yards per game. But Wilson is literally super clutch so it's difficult to argue with that logic.
Just a quick fact check for you, Wilson also rushed for 850 yards and 6 TD's on the season. Guess you aren't counting those yards and only looking at passing yards? Another fun fact is that Wilson only threw 7 INT's on the season, way fewer than Luck, Manning or Brees. So, to recap, less overall passing yards, way more rushing yards and significantly fewer INT's. Sounds pretty solid to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigproblems View Post
I know you aren't being sarcastic. I'm going to explain my reasoning as to why I think Wilson is being overpaid for the last time. He can't carry a team like Luck, Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers can. The Seahawks don't ask Wilson to throw for 300+ yards in order to win games. They rely on defense, a great run game, and controlling the clock. The Hawks have been to the superbowl the past two years and have had a ton of success since Wilson was drafted, but that doesn't mean that he is an elite QB. Without guys like Richard Sherman, Bobby Wagner, Marshawn Lynch, Kam Chancellor, Earl Thomas etc. they would not be contenders every year. The Seahawks have been super bowl contenders the past three years and Wilson deserves some credit but he isn't in the same class as the guys I listed above.
Why the crush on Luck? He's literally not led his team to anything and hasn't won as many games as Wilson either with a much easier schedule than Wilson along the way. Manning and Brees aren't clutch, sorry. Rodgers and Brady are winners no doubt. I'd put Wilson more in the realm of Brady and Rodgers than Manning, Brees and Luck. Those three are stat queens and that's about it. Luck may pan out to be a winner but he's literally done nothing to prove that to this point other than some nice individual stat seasons for himself.

Defense absolutely wins championships, that's no secret. You can't disparage what Wilson has done thus far just because the Seattle defense is really good. His offensive "weapons", aside from Lynch, up to this point have been hideous. Literally no one on the offensive side of the ball would be players anyone would draft in fantasy football and expect to win, that's how weak they've been. But there they are, in two Super Bowls in three seasons. It's not because the defense is scoring 25 points per game, that's for sure.

Wilson absolutely got drafted into the perfect situation. What QB wouldn't want to come into the league with a top defense and not be required to throw it 40 times a game? But, the fact is, he's clutch and has ice water in those veins. You pay good money for that as a GM as that isn't something you learn or develop in a gym. Seattle knows they aren't finding that again probably and dished out the cash. Obviously you can't keep everyone but finding another LB or DT is a helluva lot easier than another good QB. That's why you pay him that money.
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Old 08-07-2015, 11:27 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
14,330 posts, read 19,587,033 times
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He deserves it, but it limits Seattle's options in terms of obtaining other top players.
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