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Old 09-26-2016, 08:58 AM
 
594 posts, read 294,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Didn't read past the bold. Didn't need to.
Then you weren't paying attention the Broncos season last year. Manning was straight rubbish. No velocity, high floaters, the dude never took a hit because he fell down when he saw defensive players closing in. Zero mobility. He was, for all intents and purposes, useless. Now, I like the guy. I think he's easily one of the greats, but he sucked so hard last year that it was difficult to stomach if you're a Broncos fan.
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Old 09-26-2016, 10:38 AM
Status: "Fill the days." (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg/Virginia Beach, VA
10,728 posts, read 11,167,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky_Raccoon View Post
Then you weren't paying attention the Broncos season last year. Manning was straight rubbish. No velocity, high floaters, the dude never took a hit because he fell down when he saw defensive players closing in. Zero mobility. He was, for all intents and purposes, useless. Now, I like the guy. I think he's easily one of the greats, but he sucked so hard last year that it was difficult to stomach if you're a Broncos fan.
It doesn't mean I wasn't paying attention. It means I'm dismissive of simplistic "analysis." Manning did not look good last year. But even in a bad year, it was Manning who sparked the team in week 17. His line from that game was 5/9 for 69 yards and no TDs or INTs. Not impressive by any stretch, yet his return to the offense was the catalyst that powered the team to a win in that game, 12-4 on the season and the #1 playoff seed.

In the Super Bowl Manning led the Broncos on the only opening drive for a score against the Panthers for the entire 2015 season. If you doubt the mental edge that drive provided as opposed to, say a punt or turnover then fair enough. Stuff like that, qualitative stuff that focusses on variables that cannot be tallied on a stat sheet, are definitely worth considering though.

Of course, Manning's greatest contributions to the Broncos Super Bowl win came from 2012-2014, where his pressence on the Broncos made the team a top destination for FA talent, much of which was instrumental in the win over the Panthers. And while 4 Super Bowl wins is better than 2 in anyone's estimation, 2 Super Bowl wins with 2 different teams is a noteworthy achievement in its own right. If it were insignificant we'd have a list of other NFL QBs who have done it. In my estimation that goes a long way toward mitigating the difference.
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Old 09-26-2016, 10:44 AM
 
594 posts, read 294,283 times
Reputation: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
It doesn't mean I wasn't paying attention. It means I'm dismissive of simplistic "analysis." Manning did not look good last year. But even in a bad year, it was Manning who sparked the team in week 17. His line from that game was 5/9 for 69 yards and no TDs or INTs. Not impressive by any stretch, yet his return to the offense was the catalyst that powered the team to a win in that game, 12-4 on the season and the #1 playoff seed.

In the Super Bowl Manning led the Broncos on the only opening drive for a score against the Panthers for the entire 2015 season. If you doubt the mental edge that drive provided as opposed to, say a punt or turnover then fair enough. Stuff like that, qualitative stuff that focusses on variables that cannot be tallied on a stat sheet, are definitely worth considering though.

Of course, Manning's greatest contributions to the Broncos Super Bowl win came from 2012-2014, where his pressence on the Broncos made the team a top destination for FA talent, much of which was instrumental in the win over the Panthers. And while 4 Super Bowl wins is better than 2 in anyone's estimation, 2 Super Bowl wins with 2 different teams is a noteworthy achievement in its own right. If it were insignificant we'd have a list of other NFL QBs who have done it. In my estimation that goes a long way toward mitigating the difference.
It was Von Miller and Demarcus Ware who sparked the team all season long, including throughout the playoffs. They were the guys who made the plays, they were the leaders, their defense carried the Broncos all season. Peyton was horrible, in every sense of the word last season. He was benched for godsakes.

And I don't necessarily equate Super Bowls wins with legendary status. Dan Marino anyone?
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Old 09-26-2016, 12:20 PM
 
Location: The Great West
2,077 posts, read 2,036,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky_Raccoon View Post
Then you weren't paying attention the Broncos season last year. Manning was straight rubbish. No velocity, high floaters, the dude never took a hit because he fell down when he saw defensive players closing in. Zero mobility. He was, for all intents and purposes, useless. Now, I like the guy. I think he's easily one of the greats, but he sucked so hard last year that it was difficult to stomach if you're a Broncos fan.
I agree Peyton was mostly bad last year. But what you and what I assume other Pats fans refuse to understand is that just because Peyton wasn't his usual GOATish self last year (because he had lost it and needed to retire, which he ended up doing), does not take away from what he gave to the Broncos during his time there. You paid attention to Peyton's season last year, did you pay attention to the state of the Broncos before he went there? Like the McDaniels debacle? Freaking...Tebow? The team had talent but not the leadership and guidance that only a guy like Peyton Manning could bring to that team.

If it wasn't for Peyton, I don't see the Broncos making two Super Bowls in three years. I don't mean to say he was the ONLY reason for that. Obviously the elite defense deserves the lion's share of the credit last year, as do the coaches. And Elway is just a fantastic GM. But it is undeniable that Peyton's presence and work ethic helped massively to change that organization and made them better. And that fact does not change even though he sucked last year.

I don't care for the Manning/Brady debate overall since it's so subjective. Yeah Brady has Belichick, but Joe Montana had Jerry Rice and Bill Walsh (part of the time) too. There isn't and hasn't ever been a GOAT quarterback agreed on by everyone. But to deny Peyton Manning's impact on the Colts and Broncos is straight up denying facts.
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Old 09-26-2016, 12:47 PM
 
594 posts, read 294,283 times
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Peyton is most certainly one of the best of all time. No doubt about it. I was so excited when Elway signed him. And let's not forget about Elway. It truly was his leadership that turned the Broncos organization around. Signing Peyton, Ware, Talib, Ward. Firing that dud, Fox, hiring Kubiak. He single handedly built a world class franchise. His business acumen is genius.
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Old 09-26-2016, 12:54 PM
 
3,723 posts, read 3,903,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky_Raccoon View Post
Peyton is most certainly one of the best of all time. No doubt about it. I was so excited when Elway signed him. And let's not forget about Elway. It truly was his leadership that turned the Broncos organization around. Signing Peyton, Ware, Talib, Ward. Firing that dud, Fox, hiring Kubiak. He single handedly built a world class franchise. His business acumen is genius.

I wouldn't call John Fox a dud. During his 4 years in Denver they made the playoffs every year, including winning at least 12 games during his last 3 seasons and they made it to a Super Bowl. They had missed the playoffs in each of the 5 seasons before his arrival. Did Elway make the call on hiring Wade Philips? The move to get Wade was more important than getting Kubiak, imo.
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Old 09-26-2016, 01:03 PM
 
Location: The Great West
2,077 posts, read 2,036,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky_Raccoon View Post
Peyton is most certainly one of the best of all time. No doubt about it. I was so excited when Elway signed him. And let's not forget about Elway. It truly was his leadership that turned the Broncos organization around. Signing Peyton, Ware, Talib, Ward. Firing that dud, Fox, hiring Kubiak. He single handedly built a world class franchise. His business acumen is genius.
I agree and I did single out Elway as well. I do think if we were to rank impact on the team, he would be #1. And there is only so much a guy like Peyton could have done without a GM like Elway and vice versa. My point was that I just couldn't see the organization becoming what it is now without a guy like Peyton becoming part of it. It's not like the Broncos were garbage before him, but just look at teams like the Jags, with talent but they aren't doing anything with it. You need great leadership from all around to achieve the results the Broncos have. That includes Elway of course, and a QB like Manning.
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Old 09-26-2016, 04:03 PM
 
5,008 posts, read 11,112,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Wow, it really is upsetting to you when someone doesn't agree with you. Do you even know what I mean when I say "qualitative?"
I'm not upset at all and if someone has a problem understanding the term "qualitative" I'd say it was you...

You want to dismiss analysis of HOW Manning played last year and in the Super Bowl in particular when discussing his impact on 2 Super Bowl wins....discussing HOW he played is most certainly a "qualitative" analysis and is just as relevant if not more than a "qualitative" discussion on Super Bowl wins on more than 1 team...

Manning obviously loses on the "quantitative" discussion on number of Super Bowl wins but if you want to have a "qualitative" discussion lets not cherry pick...

Is there a "qualitative" advantage to winning SuperBowls for more than 1 team? I personally don't think so but if you want to continue to make that argument feel free....

Can any non Manning homer honestly say that if Tom Brady had QB'd the Broncos in the Super Bowl last season they think the result would have been different, other than the Bronco's scoring a lot more not likely.

Now put Manning on the 2014 Pats against the Seahawks in Super Bowl 49....Does anyone seriously think the Pats still win?? Knowing how BAD Peyton looked against the same team 1 year prior.....knowing he wouldn't have the 2015 Broncos Defense propping him up....knowing he needs to lead 2 4th Quarter TD drives while behind to the best defense in football the way Brady did

Does anyone seriously think Manning beats the Seahawks if the roles were reversed??

Does anyone seriously think Brady DOESN'T beat the Panthers if the roles were reversed??

Is there a "qualitative" advantage when comparing level of play, statistics, outcomes when comparing Tom Bradys 6 Super Bowl trips to Peyton Manning's 4 Super Bowl trips?? Absolutely and it certainly doesn't favor Manning...think about it, even in his 2 Super Bowl losses Brady led his team from behind to a go ahead score with only minutes remaining each time to see his Defense lose the game...

How many come from behind SB wins does Manning have again?

Manning can keep his title of best "regular season QB of all time"

Brady however is the GOAT when the stakes are highest no one has come through more
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Old 09-26-2016, 04:45 PM
Status: "Fill the days." (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg/Virginia Beach, VA
10,728 posts, read 11,167,796 times
Reputation: 14200
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
I'm not upset at all and if someone has a problem understanding the term "qualitative" I'd say it was you...

You want to dismiss analysis of HOW Manning played last year and in the Super Bowl in particular when discussing his impact on 2 Super Bowl wins....discussing HOW he played is most certainly a "qualitative" analysis and is just as relevant if not more than a "qualitative" discussion on Super Bowl wins on more than 1 team...

Manning obviously loses on the "quantitative" discussion on number of Super Bowl wins but if you want to have a "qualitative" discussion lets not cherry pick...

Is there a "qualitative" advantage to winning SuperBowls for more than 1 team? I personally don't think so but if you want to continue to make that argument feel free....

Can any non Manning homer honestly say that if Tom Brady had QB'd the Broncos in the Super Bowl last season they think the result would have been different, other than the Bronco's scoring a lot more not likely.

Now put Manning on the 2014 Pats against the Seahawks in Super Bowl 49....Does anyone seriously think the Pats still win?? Knowing how BAD Peyton looked against the same team 1 year prior.....knowing he wouldn't have the 2015 Broncos Defense propping him up....knowing he needs to lead 2 4th Quarter TD drives while behind to the best defense in football the way Brady did

Does anyone seriously think Manning beats the Seahawks if the roles were reversed??

Does anyone seriously think Brady DOESN'T beat the Panthers if the roles were reversed??

Is there a "qualitative" advantage when comparing level of play, statistics, outcomes when comparing Tom Bradys 6 Super Bowl trips to Peyton Manning's 4 Super Bowl trips?? Absolutely and it certainly doesn't favor Manning...think about it, even in his 2 Super Bowl losses Brady led his team from behind to a go ahead score with only minutes remaining each time to see his Defense lose the game...

How many come from behind SB wins does Manning have again?

Manning can keep his title of best "regular season QB of all time"

Brady however is the GOAT when the stakes are highest no one has come through more


Interesting post. Now...take a deep breath, calm down, and remember: it's just an internet forum.

There. Now with that little exercise in restraint behind us, I'll ask again: Do you understand what I mean when I say "qualitative?" Because this rant indicates you don't. I'll give you a hint: I've described it on a few different posts on this thread. If that's too much perhaps this will help:

Qualitative | Define Qualitative at Dictionary.com
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Old 09-26-2016, 04:49 PM
 
6,526 posts, read 3,503,897 times
Reputation: 10348
Sorry, but I think you are buying into this system stuff way too much. Yes the Pats have had success in the Brady era when he's been down (currently 14-5). But wins and losses doesn't tell the tale of what you see on the field. The mechanics, the precision, the timing. It is glaringly obvious how great of a QB Brady is, and just because the media wants to spark this debate doesn't make it true.

Brady > Peyton. On pure stats people will lean Manning. On playoff success people will lean Brady. From watching football and trying to see "into" the game with intangibles, whether it be leadership or what have you, I give the edge to Brady. We're splitting hairs here, but call me a Pats homer, but Brady is the best IMO.
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