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Old 11-27-2016, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,793 posts, read 5,633,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
I forgot about Plunkett!
Most people do.. There is also a caveat. Phil Simms has 2 Super BOwl Rings.. both deserving.. he was MVP of Super Bowl XXI.. and in 1990, he led the Giants to a 12-2 record before getting injured.. HOstetler took over and led the Giants to a win in Super Bowl XXV.... still Simms got a second Super Bowl ring and no one disputes his value getting the Giants into the Playoffs and propelling them to a Super Bowl title he just didn't get to play due to injury..
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:39 PM
 
1,281 posts, read 771,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Most people do.. There is also a caveat. Phil Simms has 2 Super BOwl Rings.. both deserving.. he was MVP of Super Bowl XXI.. and in 1990, he led the Giants to a 12-2 record before getting injured.. HOstetler took over and led the Giants to a win in Super Bowl XXV.... still Simms got a second Super Bowl ring and no one disputes his value getting the Giants into the Playoffs and propelling them to a Super Bowl title he just didn't get to play due to injury..
Phil sims always played well against the skins and cowboys but never the eagles during that 86 to 90 era lol
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:48 PM
 
5,644 posts, read 13,184,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryffendor View Post
That's not correct. Jim Plunkett has 2 SB wins and he isn't in the HOF
To be fair though Plunkett had the misfortune of being the number 1 overall pick with the Patriots and he got the David Carr treatment....pummeled into submission behind a horrible offensive line for years....

He was a Heisman winner and a definite QB "talent" he just had the misfortune of playing for a horrible team...I remember it well because he was drafted by my Patriots just as I was coming of age as a Pats fan...he took a beating every week.

Was actually very happy to see him have late career success with the Raiders
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Lake Norman, NC
8,875 posts, read 13,850,323 times
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Trent Dilfer OR Dan Marino?

I rest my case...
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:17 PM
 
5,644 posts, read 13,184,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes17 View Post
Trent Dilfer OR Dan Marino?

I rest my case...
Dan Marino or Joe Montana

I rest my case....
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:25 PM
 
1,281 posts, read 771,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
To be fair though Plunkett had the misfortune of being the number 1 overall pick with the Patriots and he got the David Carr treatment....pummeled into submission behind a horrible offensive line for years....

He was a Heisman winner and a definite QB "talent" he just had the misfortune of playing for a horrible team...I remember it well because he was drafted by my Patriots just as I was coming of age as a Pats fan...he took a beating every week.

Was actually very happy to see him have late career success with the Raiders

So Plunkett never adjusted his game since he knew the Oline wasn't that good?
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,793 posts, read 5,633,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
To be fair though Plunkett had the misfortune of being the number 1 overall pick with the Patriots and he got the David Carr treatment....pummeled into submission behind a horrible offensive line for years....

He was a Heisman winner and a definite QB "talent" he just had the misfortune of playing for a horrible team...I remember it well because he was drafted by my Patriots just as I was coming of age as a Pats fan...he took a beating every week.

Was actually very happy to see him have late career success with the Raiders
I too was happy to see Plunkett have success in Oakland/LA... but to be fair.. he was not much more than a bus driver for the Raiders.. If memory serves me correct, Rod Martin was MVP of Super Bowl XIV and Marcus Allen was MVP of Super Bowl XVII. The Raiders tried multiple times to replace him at QB during that second Super Bowl Run..
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Type 0.73 Kardashev
11,110 posts, read 9,744,781 times
Reputation: 40160
I think this has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Obviously, Marino and Tarkenton and Fouts and many other quarterbacks who have no rings were better than the Trend Dilfers and Mark Rypiens and Brad Johnson of the NFL world. Not just better but orders of magnitude better.

On the other hand, there are quarterbacks who are like machines in the postseason. Brady and Montana come immediately to mind.

Another aspect is the ability to rise to the occasion. Take Terry Bradshaw. He started 158 regular season games in his career, and he only threw for 300 yards four times (2.5% of the time). But in 21 postseason starts, he threw for 300 yards three times (14.3% - over 5x as often). And he did so in two of four Super Bowls (50%). So mostly Bradshaw won behind great defense and a vaunted ground game. But when they needed him to step up, he was able to do so - and he did.

A curious case is Elway. His two rings late in his career sealed his status as an all-time Top 10 quarterback, but he was more valuable earlier in his career when he was taking the Broncos to the Super Bowl on his back. The rings were more due to Terrell Davis than Elway.

And sometimes, things are beyond the control of the quarterback. If Scott Norwood isn't wide right, not only does Jim Kelly have at least one ring but maybe the Bills are more confident after 1990 and grab one or more additional rings as a result. If Mike Jones doesn't nail the tackle of Kevin Dyson, maybe Kurt Warner is just another Tarkenton with multiple losses in the big game.

Bottom line? Sure, rings matter. But it's more complicated than that. The nature of those Super Bowls need to be examined.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:32 PM
 
1,281 posts, read 771,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
I think this has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Obviously, Marino and Tarkenton and Fouts and many other quarterbacks who have no rings were better than the Trend Dilfers and Mark Rypiens and Brad Johnson of the NFL world. Not just better but orders of magnitude better.

On the other hand, there are quarterbacks who are like machines in the postseason. Brady and Montana come immediately to mind.

Another aspect is the ability to rise to the occasion. Take Terry Bradshaw. He started 158 regular season games in his career, and he only threw for 300 yards four times (2.5% of the time). But in 21 postseason starts, he threw for 300 yards three times (14.3% - over 5x as often). And he did so in two of four Super Bowls (50%). So mostly Bradshaw won behind great defense and a vaunted ground game. But when they needed him to step up, he was able to do so - and he did.

A curious case is Elway. His two rings late in his career sealed his status as an all-time Top 10 quarterback, but he was more valuable earlier in his career when he was taking the Broncos to the Super Bowl on his back. The rings were more due to Terrell Davis than Elway.

And sometimes, things are beyond the control of the quarterback. If Scott Norwood isn't wide right, not only does Jim Kelly have at least one ring but maybe the Bills are more confident after 1990 and grab one or more additional rings as a result. If Mike Jones doesn't nail the tackle of Kevin Dyson, maybe Kurt Warner is just another Tarkenton with multiple losses in the big game.

Bottom line? Sure, rings matter. But it's more complicated than that. The nature of those Super Bowls need to be examined.
I don't judge a QB by rings I judge a QB by how often he led his team to the playoffs and how he played in the playoffs. For example, Donovan Mcnabb has no rings but the eagles was in the playoffs every year for 6 season and was able to compete for a SB. And that's how I judge a QB who plays in the NFL when it comes to his overall career. And when the Eagles offense was scoring, Mcnabb was a large part of the reason because of his ability to buy time and run when he needed to.
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Old 11-28-2016, 05:17 PM
 
5,644 posts, read 13,184,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfceast View Post
So Plunkett never adjusted his game since he knew the Oline wasn't that good?
Adjust what game?? This was the 1970's when you could actually HIT the QB....there was also no West Coast offense in the 70's, QB's stood in the pocket and when they threw they were taking shots down the field not dinking and dunking

Plunkett wasn't a runner, he was a pocket passer and he got KILLED behind that line....not many QB's come back from that kind of early career pounding....Carr certainly didn't and he didn't take half the beating Plunkett did..

Patriots went to Steve Grogan after Plunkett who was a GREAT running QB, he had over 500 yards one season and was one of 4 Patriots to rush for over 500 yards that year which still stands as the greatest rushing single season offense of all time....Grogan also rushed for 12 TD's one season which stood as the all time record for QB's until Cam broke it in 2011.

Personally I think Steve Grogan may have been the toughest QB to ever play in the NFL...the shots he took...the injuries came back from. I don't think I have ever seen a QB play with a neck roll the way Grogan did before or since..one of my all time favorites
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