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Old 11-27-2016, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Two Rivers, Wisconsin
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QB wins, although cool.. are unofficial stats.. It does point out the obvious importance of a QB.. no one disputes a QBs value but i have seen more teams win Super Bowls with average QBs than I have seen Elite QBs win a Super Bowl with average teams...

Great point by MCO and my sentiments exactly!

It is like being clutch, or overtime wins, if the team doesn't get a stop from the defense and the QB never sees the field, how is it his fault. Some discussions you can have forever, with many, many opinions, not really any right or wrong. Much of it comes with over analyzing and the massive amount of statistics these days.
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Old 11-27-2016, 06:37 AM
 
4,984 posts, read 11,050,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
QB wins, although cool.. are unofficial stats.. It does point out the obvious importance of a QB.. no one disputes a QBs value but i have seen more teams win Super Bowls with average QBs than I have seen Elite QBs win a Super Bowl with average teams...
Really?

Name them.....

In the last 20 years I can think of 2 "average"QB's that have won Super Bowls, 3 if you consider Flacco "average"

In the other 17 seasons you have HOF or potential HOF QB's winning....
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:37 AM
 
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I would absolutely call Flacco an average QB thus far for his career. I lean that way with Eli even too although he is probably very likely a future HOFer. I'd consider Johnson and Dilfer below average from a career perspective.

Eli has stepped it up the last few seasons statistically, so we will see where that continues to lead him. On the other hand, Joe Flacco, really has not stepped it up at all the last couple of seasons so far. He has a great post season record including one of the greatest post season runs ever, but that does not make him a great QB for his career IMO.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:45 AM
 
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What I find interesting is the number of elite WRs that do not have a ring.

Moss and T.O., right off the top, two of the best to ever do it.

Tim Brown, Chris Carter, Andre Reed other players from the earlier generation who are ringless.

And more current and active guys like Brown, Bryant, Green, Julio, Megatron, Fitzgerald.

Some of the better WR's with rings from recent memory:

Harrison, Wayne, Holt, Bruce, Nelson?

Back in the day it was a running league, so it wasn't too surprising that some of the bette WRs did not lead their teams to Super Bowls. But in today's passing league, if guys like Brown, Green, Julio, and Beckham all get held without a ring for their careers, that would be fairly surprising.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,211 posts, read 2,830,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Really?

Name them.....

In the last 20 years I can think of 2 "average"QB's that have won Super Bowls, 3 if you consider Flacco "average"

In the other 17 seasons you have HOF or potential HOF QB's winning....
2015: Peyton Manning, below average and past his prime...
2013: Russell Wilson, game manager, average!
2012: Joe Flacco, very average...
2008: Ben Roethlisberger, very average...
2007: Eli Manning, below average...
2005: Ben Roethlisberger, game manager, average!
2003: Tom Brady, very average but showed growth that postseason...
2002: Brad Johnson, average...
2001: Tom Brady, game manager, average!
2000: Trent Dilfer, below average, come on, man...

This is just since I've been watching football ('99), and you have to look at this stuff individually by season, you have to. Only 7 of the last 17 Super Bowls were won by a quarterback having an elite OR above average year ('99 Warner, '04 Brady, '06 Peyton, '09 Brees, '10 Rodgers, '11 Eli, '14 Brady). So, yes, more teams win Super Bowls with average to subpar to even bad quarterback play, than teams with top shelf quarterback play win Super Bowls...

To your "HOF or future HOF QB" comment:

Tom Brady became a Famer, he wasn't always that way. He won two Super Bowls on the backs of superior coaching and defense before he broke out as an elite passer (2004). The argument will always exist about him vs Montana or even Peyton because those two were ALWAYS the guy, never considered "game managers" at any point of their careers until perhaps the very end...Brady is 2-2 as a superstar, and history would judge him a lot tougher if he was starting his career in rougher circumstances (lesser coaching, lesser surrounding talent)...

Ben Roethlisberger is a bubble Famer because of the two chips. He was NOT the catalyst for either of his championship teams. He really didn't have his breakthrough year until Year 7...

Eli Manning was never a great quarterback. He had two great postseason runs, has two rings, but I don't think he's going in The Hall, it will probably take him at least 4-5 tries if he does get in. His career will alter how quarterbacks are graded into The Hall, because he's the consensus worst player of his draft, and there are quarterbacks with less than two rings who aren't in yet that were/are better. Him winning those two Super Bowls are his only claim to fame...

Russell Wilson morphed late last year into an upper-echelon, Top 5 QB, and appears to be destined for greatness (his career arc actually resembles Brady's, but that's another thread). It remains to be seen whether he's a future HOFer, though, because he wasn't an elite QB when they won it all three year ago...
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,628 posts, read 4,223,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Really?

Name them.....

In the last 20 years I can think of 2 "average"QB's that have won Super Bowls, 3 if you consider Flacco "average"

In the other 17 seasons you have HOF or potential HOF QB's winning....
REALLY! but like most things.. its objective..
My football memory goes way beyond 20 years so that's where i will start..
So many folks on this forum think football started when they were born.. i get that..

most would say that an Average Ageing Peyton Manning rode the coat tails of an ELITE Bronco Defense to the Super Bowl title last year... but i digress.

just off the top my head:

Earl Morrall
Jim Plunkett
Joe Thiesmann
Jim McMahon
Phil Simms
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Joe Flacco



Some of these are above average but not what i call elite and certainly not HOF worthy... MY POINT is, i can name more average QBs that won SUPER BOWLS on ELITE teams than i can name ELITE QBs that won Super Bowls on Average teams..

I can't think of one instance where an ELITE QB willed his average team to a Super Bowl title.. maybe it happened an I simply over looked it..
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:04 AM
 
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I think it is a little unfair to throw Wilson, Brady and Big Ben into the average QB group. Yes, while they may not have been the QBs they are today when they won some of those super bowls, the foundation of a great QB was obviously there. We know this because of the players they have grown to be.

Johnson actually had a very good year the year he won a super bowl, but still I call him average at best because he never grew into a great QB beyond that one season.

I guess it is a question of what kind of year was the QB having statistically vs. what kind of year is the QB capable of having statistically.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:11 AM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,858,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post

I can't think of one instance where an ELITE QB willed his average team to a Super Bowl title.. maybe it happened an I simply over looked it..
Drew Brees is probably the closets that comes to mind. The defense stepped up that year, including the big pick six in the Super Bowl, but that was still a season that consisted a whole lot of Drew Brees making things happen for the Saints. Which has pretty much been the story since he arrived in New Orleans.
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,628 posts, read 4,223,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Drew Brees is probably the closets that comes to mind. The defense stepped up that year, including the big pick six in the Super Bowl, but that was still a season that consisted a whole lot of Drew Brees making things happen for the Saints. Which has pretty much been the story since he arrived in New Orleans.
Great POINT.. thinking back now, that Saints defense was probably just a tad above average. They lived on turnovers.. that and bounty hits.
At the moment, i can't think of any one else on that offense.. all though I know there were some other players.. Brees was head and shoulders above the rest of them..
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:34 AM
 
158 posts, read 49,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Really?

Name them.....

In the last 20 years I can think of 2 "average"QB's that have won Super Bowls, 3 if you consider Flacco "average"

In the other 17 seasons you have HOF or potential HOF QB's winning....
Why did you cherry pick 20 yrs? The SB has been around for 50 yrs....in that time, you have had guys like Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett (twice), Eli Manning (twice), a subpar Peyton Manning. Ben Roethlisberger who was downright brutal in his first SB. No one is saying that a gifted QB doesn't greatly increase your chance, but it isn't a necessity....perfect example is last year....the mantra still holds true....DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!! Exception to that has to be Brady. I don't know how he wins with a patchwork defense, no good RB and midget white guys as his receivers, but he does
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