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Old 12-22-2016, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Canberra, Australia
71 posts, read 33,067 times
Reputation: 46

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Sure it isn't comparing apples to apples, but it does show that it is a team game. The fact the Pats can still score points and win plenty of games when Brady isn't putting up big numbers is a credit to their coaching and balance. As for the biggest stage in the AFCCG, Manning led teams are 3-1 vs NE. Anyway, Brady still has a shot to put some distance between himself and the rest of the field despite the advantages he has had in NE. NE is clearly the favourite this year.

Still, no matter which way you look at it, Manning had some poor support in his career:

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Old 12-22-2016, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Two Rivers, Wisconsin
11,724 posts, read 11,559,537 times
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Interesting post, thanks for sharing!
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,840,021 times
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Update this thread going into 2017 playoffs based on contenders...

AFC

1. Ben Roethlisberger, 13-7(.650) career playoff record, 2-1(.667) Super Bowl, 3-2(.600) AFC Championship Game
2. Tom Brady, 25-9(.735) career playoffs, 5-2(.714) Super Bowls, 7-4(.636) AFC Championship
3. Marcus Mariota no playoff record
4. Alex Smith, 2-4(.333) playoffs, 0-1 Championship Game (with Niners in '11)
5. Blake Bortles no playoff record
6. Joe Flacco, 10-5(.667) career playoffs, 1-0 Super Bowl, 1-2(.333) AFC Championship
7. Philip Rivers, 4-5(.445) playoffs, 0-1 AFC Championship
8. Tyrod Taylor no playoff record
9. Derek Carr no playoff record

Postseason makes legends out of guys who might not be that otherwise--just look at Eli Manning and Flacco, two quarterbacks who are some of the most clutch and greatest playoff quarterbacks ever, but on balance, have been more "average" than "elite" their entire careers. But they both have had historic playoff success and with their respective franchises, will be considered legendary...

So how does postseason play account for one's greatness? It's only part of the story--again, look to Flacco. He's a 10-year starter in this league and has had maybe two seasons that he'd even be considered a B-level, above-average QB. He owns a .600 win percentage but his career record is largely buoyed by having a stellar defense that did the heavy lifting for him. We know who Flacco is. He has the postseason success and a large enough sample size to where we can't call it accidental--Playoff Joe is a real thing. But because he hasn't even matched his playoff play with regular season greatness, nobody should consider him a great quarterback. He's a career average quarterback...

Neither of the young quarterbacks with no playoff experience (Taylor, Bortles, Carr) have even had elite regular seasons worthy of being mentioned as "great". Carr was heavily overrated by the hype machine last year. If you have to, yes, he's closer to the top of the QB hierarchy than the bottom, but he isn't yet "great", and I don't know that he ever will be. He's Andrew Luck-lite...

Rivers has been an elite quarterback for a long stretch of his career, but he's lacked the playoff success. At 14 years in, there is a body of work here that will ultimately keep a narrative that he was great but not All-Time great, unless he wins a ring. He's only been to one AFCCG. And to be fair, he had some talent-rich squads and didn't always play his best in the playoffs...and we know who Alex Smith is. Not even going there...

Big Ben and Brady are the only true "great" quarterbacks of the AFC by reputation and resume. And people like to forget that Brady was a late bloomer as an elite QB, starting his career with heavy early success that was built around great team defense. The same as Roethlisberger, they have the same beginnings. Obviously Brady has reached a different level of greatness than Ben, but both have sustained and earned that title with consistent greatness...

NFC

1. Case Keenum no playoff record
2. Carson Wentz no playoff record
3. Jared Goff no playoff record
4. Drew Brees, 6-5 career playoffs, 1-0 Super Bowl, 1-1 NFC Championship
5. Russell Wilson, 8-4 career playoffs, 1-1 Super Bowl, 2-0 NFC Championship
6. Cam Newton, 3-3 career playoffs, 0-1 Super Bowl, 1-0 NFC Championship
7. Matt Ryan, 3-5 career playoffs, 0-1 Super Bowl, 1-1 NFC Championship

The only thing preventing Matt Ryan from being considered "great" is a ring. Consistent playoff success might even do it. He's a career B/B+ quarterback, but he has a losing playoff record, so even though he's shed the "can't win big games" label, you can't be viewed as an All-Timer with a losing playoff record. He'd also benefit from a few more seasons like his '16...

Newton is not a great quarterback, and at this point, I doubt a Lombardi would change his narrative. He's too hot and cold and untrustworthy as a leader; he's an average quarterback with size and athleticism. Newton would have to win multiple rings to change his story...

Obviously Brees and Wilson are great quarterbacks. Wilson's blueprint is similar as Ben and Brady, a guy with early career success carried by his defense who then grew into an elite quarterback. If his career ended after this year He's already had the success to be a Famer. He will win at least one more Super Bowl, and continued deep playoff runs and rings, along with continued elite play, is going to fly him up the All-Time GOAT list eventually...

I would love for Brees to win another before retiring. He's long been one if my favorite players and the burdens he shouldered for some bad teams are unique. Brees had the misfortune of being from the same era as Manning, Brady, and Rodgers. He's been overshadowed his entire career by one or more if those three, even though he's outplayed them at certain seasons and/or spots.
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:26 PM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
2,270 posts, read 883,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlyriser18 View Post
Sure it isn't comparing apples to apples, but it does show that it is a team game. The fact the Pats can still score points and win plenty of games when Brady isn't putting up big numbers is a credit to their coaching and balance. As for the biggest stage in the AFCCG, Manning led teams are 3-1 vs NE. Anyway, Brady still has a shot to put some distance between himself and the rest of the field despite the advantages he has had in NE. NE is clearly the favourite this year.

Still, no matter which way you look at it, Manning had some poor support in his career:
Manning got top 8 scoring defense efforts from the Colts five times (2002, 2005, 2007-09) and went one one-and-done four times (including two seasons when the Colts were #1 and #2, respectively, in scoring defense). He also had a #4 scoring defense in 2012 with the Broncos (one-and-done again) and another #4 scoring defense when he got his second ring. That's backing by a top 8 scoring defense 7 times in 17 seasons as a starter.

So, no matter which way you look at it, Manning also had some very good support in his career.
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Old 12-07-2017, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Two Rivers, Wisconsin
11,724 posts, read 11,559,537 times
Reputation: 12484
I've always liked Drew Brees, unfortunate the Saints have been up and down in terms of getting to the playoffs. I've always argued against putting too much emphasis on SB rings in terms of the QB. It is a team game, team win, QB isn't out there all alone.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:04 PM
 
4,986 posts, read 11,066,062 times
Reputation: 11855
Quote:
Originally Posted by susancruzs View Post
I've always liked Drew Brees, unfortunate the Saints have been up and down in terms of getting to the playoffs. I've always argued against putting too much emphasis on SB rings in terms of the QB. It is a team game, team win, QB isn't out there all alone.
Brees is an ALL TIME GREAT and no doubt first ballot HOFer who will likely own all of Peyton's passing records before he is done...Dan Marino is my age and as much as I hated him as a Pats fan I respected the heck out of him and he was one of my all time favorites to watch when he wasn't playing my team, another ALL TIMER even if he never did win a ring..

But the rings DO matter.

Same for every team sport even though one could argue that in some, basketball, for instance a single legendary player can take over a game more than a single player can in football.

Is Jordan the GOAT without the rings??? But how many would he have won without Pippen?

Gretzky arguably the GOAT in hockey with 4 Stanley Cup Championships....

Babe Ruth won 4 World Series with the Yankees...

Pele arguably the greatest soccer player in history in large part due to 3 World Cup titles.


Stats matter for QB's and the "eye test" for sure but there is so much more that goes into great QB play the all time greats who have won multiple SB's often have intangibles between the ears and in the heart that can't be measured.

Dan Marino and Aaron Rodgers were certainly better "athletes" with bigger "arms" and maybe more "wow" throws but bottom line is guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady have been more clutch when it mattered for their teams...

So barring a sudden avalanche of SB rings in his latter years a player like Rodgers should never be ranked ahead of Montana or Brady

Rodgers is a great talent no doubt, throws that NO one else can make....but is he really a "clutch" QB??

He is 100th all time for QB's on 4th quarter comebacks with only 12 to his name....

Brady is 2nd all time with 40....Brees has 30....Wison has 19 and is younger than Aaron

You might say, yeah but how often is Rodgers behind in the 4th quarter...

Well then you have THIS nugget...

One of the most amazing stats I have seen....

Rodgers is 0-35 when trailing by 1 point or more in the 4th quarter against a team with a winning record....

Brady led his team back in the SUPERBOWL from 25 points down against the best team in the NFC....but Rodgers has never even won a regular season game when his team is down in the 4th against a good team by 1 point
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,766 posts, read 2,375,608 times
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Weren’t the packers down 21-20 in 4th quarter vs cowboys in the playoffs 2015 when Rodgers led them back? I’m on my phone otherwise I’d look up a decent box score.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:26 PM
 
3,576 posts, read 1,238,955 times
Reputation: 3732
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfceast View Post
Does a QB's talent come into question if his team can't make the playoffs or win a game in the playoffs?
Depends

If you don't know much about football, then, yes, you might judge a player's talent based on how the rest of his team performs.

If you do know about football, you can watch that player's performance and draw conclusions about his talent directly.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:14 PM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,862,006 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
One of the most amazing stats I have seen....

Rodgers is 0-35 when trailing by 1 point or more in the 4th quarter against a team with a winning record....
That is a crazy stat if accurate. Is that against teams that have a winning record at the time the two teams play or teams that have a winning record at the end of the season?
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:17 PM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,862,006 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by everwinter View Post
Werenít the packers down 21-20 in 4th quarter vs cowboys in the playoffs 2015 when Rodgers led them back? Iím on my phone otherwise Iíd look up a decent box score.
Correct. But Blue's stat is specifically regular season games.
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