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Old 01-03-2017, 07:15 PM
 
17 posts, read 5,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
It's really hard to evaluate QBs sometimes.

Put Cousins on the Cowboys offense this year.. Do you think they're at or better than where they are with Prescott? I do. We could say put Elliott on the Redskins, are they 14-2? I don't think so mainly because of the Redskins OL after Trent Williams was suspended.

I fully expect a sophomore slump from Prescott.. It pretty much happens to all QBs. Happened to Winston this year. That first year, teams are shocked by them. The second year.. The defenses adjust. Look at RG3. While we can put some of his issues on the torn ACL.. Not all of them.

Kaepernick.. It took 1 1/2 years to figure him out.. But he's figured out.

I also think with Cousins, you have to toss out the '12, '13 and '14 seasons. In all reality, '15 was his rookie year. yes, he played before that, but.. He wasn't the starter those years.
I don't think you can just assume that Cousins takes the Cowboys to a 13-3 record, it's all speculation. Is Cousins a good young QB, absolutely. There seems to be some underlying thought that Cousins should be elevated into "elite" status. I don't agree....There seems to be this need to rush to judgement where we have to declare the "new guy" as GREAT....Just go back to last year, people were screaming that Cam Newton was the best QB in the NFL...."The future of the QB position" blah, blah, blah, blah....You want to be an elite QB? It doesn't mean one good year, it means 4,5,6,7 years of top play....Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben R are "elite" QBs....they do it year after year after year after year. Not just one or 2 years
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Old 01-03-2017, 08:01 PM
 
Location: southwestern USA
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Luck has been the major surprise here----he seems to have regressed a bit. There appear to factors related to protection----he seems to be running for his life at times.
They need to make some changes around him----improve protection, get some production from the running game, and improve their wrs.
Luck has a world of talent and they need to help him out.
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Old 01-03-2017, 08:02 PM
 
32,499 posts, read 26,381,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
So, from the moment of the 2012 quarterback draft, it has been compared to the deepest quarterback classes in history, as having the potential to produce multiple Hall of Famers. Five complete seasons later, I'd say the trajectory and potential for '12 being a legendary draft class is still trending in that direction, although a bit different from the conventional opinions of that draft at the moment...

This draft is special to me for a few reasons. One, I'm pretty much the same age as these quarterbacks playing, so in a sense, I feel like I "grew up" with these guys, they are all easy for me to follow. Two, I'm from the same hometown as Russell Wilson (Richmond, Virginia), so he's easy to follow, and he's the biggest name NFL player the city has had since the Sharper brothers (Darren and Jamie)...

Three, it is the only class this deep I've been able to view and watch as an adult and watch grow. I remember the 2004 class very well, but I was 15 then, and at the time I didn't have the same depth and understanding of the game. That class will send definitely one (Big Ben), potentially two (Rivers or Eli), slight possibility to send three guys to The Hall. I think c/o '12 has the potential to match '04 in star power, recognition, and greatness...

The overall theme to this thread is I want to hear C-D Football's ranking and opinion on how these quarterbacks rank right now, through five complete seasons, and what do you all believe the future outlook is for all of the guys? Who is destined to head to Canton? Who has already peaked? Who will win (more) championships? Can anyone who has struggled have a mid-to-late career resurgence? Let's look at the order of the class as they were drafted:

1. Andrew Luck, #1 overall, Colts
2. Robert Griffin III, #2 overall, Redskins
3. Ryan Tannehill, #8 overall, Dolphins
4. Russell Wilson, Round 3, #75 overall, Seahawks
5. Nick Foles, Round 3, #88 overall, Eagles
6. Kirk Cousins, Round 4, #102 overall, Redskins

Except for Foles and Griffin, everyone else is still with the team that originally drafted them. So to get on to it, I'll present my ranking for how I see these guys currently, based on 5 years body of work, and explain my thoughts subsequently:

1. Wilson
2. Luck
3. Cousins
4. Tannehill
5. Foles
6. Griffin

......................

Not much has to be said about Griffin. He's a bust, was deemed by some scouts as having a higher potential than Luck. His inability to develop into an NFL caliber quarterback, coupled with the fact that if the wind blows too hard he's injured, is on the way to ending his career. If not this year, I predict next year will be his last in The League. He's got the second-fewest starts and the lowest win percentage (.385) if the entire group, which is wildly disappointing for any #2 overall pick; his career is finished. Maybe not quite as big a bust as JaMarcus Russell, what about Ryan Leaf? Nothing left to say about Griffin!

Nick Foles wasn't drafted with any hoopla or high expectations, so by that measure, he's outplayed his initial stock. At only 36 starts he's started the fewest games of anybody, but he does have the third-highest win percentage (.556) and led a team to the playoffs as a starter. He can play, and I predict he'll be around 15+ seasons. Of course, it has to be mentioned that expectations soared after his tremendous '13 season, which he failed to live up to and is the reason he's a backup again. But he may be the best backup QB in the game right now. He hasn't shown enough to be a full time starter again, but you guys know how this works. A few years on the bench under Reid in KC, he's gonna get his shot to be the guy again, whether there or with another team. He's still young and 'could' be the next Rich Gannon in the making...

Tannehill was drafted higher than he should have been and is a converted wide receiver, since by that notion he's outplayed his stock, but then he really hasn't. I think you know what you're gonna get with him. He's very durable--he started the first 77 games of his career until missing the last three this year. In a vacuum, I'm not sure I believe he's actually a better player than Nick Foles, but the body of work weighs in Tannehill's favor. I think he's finally got the right coach in Adam Gase who knows what to do with him...Tannehill will get better; he had a good year this year, but he's not a HOF-type guy. He's Alex Smith, which means you can win with him if you surround him with the right players and the right coaches!

Kirk Cousins is probably the first or second biggest surprise of the class. He was drafted dead last but has outplayed everyone except the Top 2 guys. He was drafted to be the backup, he had some potential, but he's outplayed his stock in two full seasons as a starter. Cousins is an interesting study because he got his "shot" later than the other guys on the list, and had the biggest struggles out of everybody when he first came in the door. His flaws and weaknesses have been picked apart but in all fairness, I think he's proven himself as one of the Top 7-8 quarterbacks in the league for two years straight now ('15, '16). The wins and passer rating don't reflect it, but Cousins did become a better player this year. His biggest weakness right now is being able to consistently be great. He still has the habit for the horrible turnover. But if you say he hasn't shown flashes of greatness, you're in denial. There isn't a throw he can't make, he's improved greatly in all phases of his game. Whether he wins a Super Bowl or not is left to be seen, but he has Romo-like potential. You can win with Kirk Cousins and if he trends in a Romo-like fashion, he has HOF potential...

Andrew Luck has to be considered a slight disappointment. Oh he has the goods and still hasn't hit his ceiling. But part of the disappointment is that the consensus #1 has been outplayed through five years by one guy. He was supposed to be the next Peyton, but I think if we're honest, through five years, he's a little short; nobody in this draft class was supposed to be a better player than Andrew Luck. Tannehill and Wilson are more durable, to say nothing of a young Peyton (to whom he'll always be compared). He's still got the knack for inaccuracy and being careless with the football. When he's hot, he's hot, and he is a winner (second highest win percentage). I think he's got a little Brett Favre in him, his style of play, and he's definitely got HOF talent. He needs better coaching and talent around him to fully blossom, but through five years I think we can say he doesn't quite have the Peyton ability to make average coaching look outstanding. And game-for-game, pound-for-pound, he isn't the best quarterback of this draft...

Russell Wilson is, by any objective measure, the best QB from 2012. Sure, we can single out traits or skills that Luck appears to possess at a higher level. We can say that Wilson has some "built in advantage" by being drafted into the best coaching and personnel/teammate situation of this group, but would that be fair to him? How would that differ from the situations Montana and Brady were drafted into, and why should it diminish Wilson's greatness of it doesn't diminish theirs? It is fair to argue that Luck outplayed Wilson this year, but it's also fair to note that it wasn't by a wide gap, and that in five seasons, this, at best, would be only the second time Luck has outplayed Wilson. It's fair to say that Wilson had a down year, we have to hold him accountable. He did have his first five-pick game this year, but that one sorry performance shouldn't be how we judge him. Lest we forget, Peyton had a six-pick game, Brees had a five-pick game, Brady has multiple four-pick games. These things happen and aren't a true representation of the player...

Instead, Wilson has shown us between the lines that he's, to this point, the best QB of that class and on the track to a HOF career. His decision making and ability to pull his team to victory are an unmatched skill set in this group. He came in as the backup to freaking Matt Cassel and has been the most durable and most consistent player of his class. Highest win percentage, easily the best postseason, big stage player. No moment seems too big for him, no defense seems intimidating--even in his bad games, he always believes he can win. That attitude is infectious. Russell Wilson has "winner" written all over him...

Wilson's 2015 is probably the best single season of any QB of this class so far, better than Cousins '16, Luck '14, Foles '13. And if that's What we have to look forward to, if that is a glimpse into what he can offer us as fans, it is more than fair to say we are gearing up to watch a legend unfold in front of our eyes...

Anyway, interested in hearing what my colleagues here feel!
you pretty well hit it imo. luck is doing bout as expected, perhaps a little off, but given the people around him, i think he is doing ok.

RGlll has suffered from several injuries which has hampered his career, however i think too much was exected of him. and i think his conversion to a drop back passer has also hurt him, since he is having to learn a whole new style of running the offense.

wilson has done quite well for himself since he was drafted. seattle has built a very good offense around him.

foles has been a bright disappointment imo. he had good promise going in, and did well at first, but then was put in an offense that he wasnt suited for. he is not a mobile quarterback, and as such needs a solid offensive line to protect him. which is why i think he would be an excellent choice for dallas as a back up with kellen moore.

cousins nd tannehill are doing ok, perhaps not what they should be doing as yet, but not so bad either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
It's really hard to evaluate QBs sometimes.

Put Cousins on the Cowboys offense this year.. Do you think they're at or better than where they are with Prescott? I do. We could say put Elliott on the Redskins, are they 14-2? I don't think so mainly because of the Redskins OL after Trent Williams was suspended.

I fully expect a sophomore slump from Prescott.. It pretty much happens to all QBs. Happened to Winston this year. That first year, teams are shocked by them. The second year.. The defenses adjust. Look at RG3. While we can put some of his issues on the torn ACL.. Not all of them.

Kaepernick.. It took 1 1/2 years to figure him out.. But he's figured out.

I also think with Cousins, you have to toss out the '12, '13 and '14 seasons. In all reality, '15 was his rookie year. yes, he played before that, but.. He wasn't the starter those years.
while i think cousins would have done better behind the cowboy line, i dont think he would have taken them to a 13-3 record. perhaps 11-5 would be more like it.

as for prescott, i to expect a sophomore slump, though i think it wont be as bad as winstons was. i think prescott has shown that he is playing at a different level maturity wise, and as long as his success doesnt go to his head, he will do about as well next season as this one. we shall see though.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:05 PM
 
17 posts, read 5,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
you pretty well hit it imo. luck is doing bout as expected, perhaps a little off, but given the people around him, i think he is doing ok.

RGlll has suffered from several injuries which has hampered his career, however i think too much was exected of him. and i think his conversion to a drop back passer has also hurt him, since he is having to learn a whole new style of running the offense.

wilson has done quite well for himself since he was drafted. seattle has built a very good offense around him.

foles has been a bright disappointment imo. he had good promise going in, and did well at first, but then was put in an offense that he wasnt suited for. he is not a mobile quarterback, and as such needs a solid offensive line to protect him. which is why i think he would be an excellent choice for dallas as a back up with kellen moore.

cousins nd tannehill are doing ok, perhaps not what they should be doing as yet, but not so bad either.



while i think cousins would have done better behind the cowboy line, i dont think he would have taken them to a 13-3 record. perhaps 11-5 would be more like it.

as for prescott, i to expect a sophomore slump, though i think it wont be as bad as winstons was. i think prescott has shown that he is playing at a different level maturity wise, and as long as his success doesnt go to his head, he will do about as well next season as this one. we shall see though.
What impresses me about Prescott is his poise and maturity. As the season has progressed he seems to have somehow gotten more accurate, especially with the deeper routes. I don't think comparing him to Winston is accurate at all. Winston is not an accurate QB. Reminds of Cam as far as the long slow delivery and will go entire games where he is all over the place. Will Prescott slump? He may, but I think there is less of a chance of a significant drop off due to his smarts and mechanics
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:17 PM
 
32,499 posts, read 26,381,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of War View Post
What impresses me about Prescott is his poise and maturity. As the season has progressed he seems to have somehow gotten more accurate, especially with the deeper routes. I don't think comparing him to Winston is accurate at all. Winston is not an accurate QB. Reminds of Cam as far as the long slow delivery and will go entire games where he is all over the place. Will Prescott slump? He may, but I think there is less of a chance of a significant drop off due to his smarts and mechanics
i think prescott will have a slump, but i think it will be a mild one given his performance this season. barring injury, i think prescott will lead the cowboys to another division title though, their record will probably be 11-5 though with a resurgent eagles team, and with a healthy redskins team. i dont see the giants slowing down next season either.
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Old 01-04-2017, 05:39 AM
 
17 posts, read 5,680 times
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What I find interesting is the Cousins apologist says part of Washingtons issues are with their OLine....They had 2 probowlers on that Oline
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
10,478 posts, read 5,941,871 times
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As a Redskins fan I have interest in this thread. Working backwards the Redskins OL is greatly improved but anyone watching them recently can see the problem. An OL has 5 players and they have issues with some of them. They have no run game and starting each drive with 2nd and 9, will being unable to convert 3rd and 1 or punch it in on 1st and goal from the 5, made it very difficulkt on Cousins. With that said I can't put him as a top 5-7 QB because he has had a concerning habit of playing poorly in big games.

I am a huge Wilson fan, I couldn't believe it when some used him as an example of how you can win a SB with an average QB. But I also believe in Andrew Luck and how he immediately turned that franchise from doormat to the playoffs.Wilson has the "it" factor big time but I believe Luck will return to form with a better OL. I have them even.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Cousins is at least as good as Stafford and Luck, pound for pound, and still with a high ceiling. Obviously Luck has a high ceiling still, but let's not conveniently ignore he has played some horrible games. His 2015 was limited to 7 games, but he was absolutely awful in all 7. I remember in 2014 he went to Cleveland and he had to rush for a touchdown at the end to win the game, but he was the primary reason they were down in that game. He played horribly. So, it may be fair for some people to say some of us overrate Cousins a little, but if that's the case, the same is definitely been done for Andrew Luck. He had a nice bounce back year this year overall, but he still has a penchant for bad turnovers and too many memorable bad games. That's why I say he has to be considered a slight disappointment--he is far from a bust, I'm not saying that, but this guy was the #1 overall pick. He has been outplayed through five years by Russell Wilson
...

Maybe Cousins isn't a Top 8 quarterback. I can see that debate. But is it okay to say that on balance looking at 2015 and 2016 individually, he played as a Top 8 QB in those individual seasons? I think it's more than fair to say he outplayed Andrew Luck in both seasons...

I understood why Wilson was called average when Seattle won the Super Bowl. He was a second year starter with a Top 3 running back and #1 defense and hadn't had to show a lot passing. But since then I think it's clear he is far from an average quarterback. If we're going to point out the injuries and line issues for Luck, we have to do the same for Wilson. And he still won his division. These things are intangibles and they matter. Luck was in a winnable division and didn't get it done...

I'll agree that it may be close, on balance, but I'm certain, personally, that Wilson is the better player...
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,756 posts, read 4,240,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of War View Post
What I find interesting is the Cousins apologist says part of Washingtons issues are with their OLine....They had 2 probowlers on that Oline
They've had a lot of injuries on the offensive line throughout the year, and didn't have Trent Williams for four games, so it hasn't been as solid of an offensive line as what it may appear from a distance. The OL did do a pretty decent job giving Cousins protection and time to throw the football this year, and the Giants game was a bit of a surprise. I haven't seen any other defense get to Cousins as much as I did in that last game. That being said, the Redskins have had trouble having a consistent running game all year - and a lot of that DOES fall upon the shoulders of the offensive line. So, there are plenty of upgrades that can, and probably should, happen. While the Redskins do have two Pro Bowlers on the OL, there's still three other guys who have to step up and perform well, and it's been hit or miss with the other guys. I will say with Morgan Moses, he's been hampered with an ankle injury all year long, so he hasn't been 100%. We've had a virtual revolving door at Center, and Shawn Lauvao hasn't been all that good this year.

But still, I would say that Cousins isn't completely at fault with his performances in big games this year, but he isn't blame free by any chance. He threw a lot passes that were off the mark in the Giants game - passes that would have been easily caught had he been on target. There's still time for growth with Kirk and I do think he's going to wind up having a fantastic career whether if it's in Washington or somewhere else. Honestly, I hope the Redskins are able to sign him to a long term deal, because he's clearly the best QB we've had in a long time.

The interesting thing when we talk about Luck is that you can't blame his regression on him, you have to blame it on what he has to work with. Well, the Redskins aren't a complete team. The defense is one of the worst defenses in the league. Dead last on third down stops, close to last defending the run, and other than Norman, the DB's were constantly giving the receivers 10 yard cushions all year long. That coupled with a running attack that has been less than stellar, I think people forget that while Cousins has plenty of weapons in the passing game, it takes more than that to churn out a playoff team. What will be interesting is, assuming Cousins signs a contract with the 'skins, and the 'skins lose either PG or DJax or both, how will Cousins be able to handle having less weapons?

All in All, I have been very surprised with the performance of Kirk Cousins and Russell Wilson. Both of those guys being drafted in the third and fourth rounds. I expect first rounders to be top ten QBs, and I don't think you can say that about Ryan Tannehill. I think if the Colts have another bad year, you might not be able to say that about Andrew Luck. Obviously RGIII is the biggest disappointed from those guys on that list.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:54 AM
 
32,499 posts, read 26,381,433 times
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Originally Posted by skinsguy37 View Post

All in All, I have been very surprised with the performance of Kirk Cousins and Russell Wilson. Both of those guys being drafted in the third and fourth rounds. I expect first rounders to be top ten QBs, and I don't think you can say that about Ryan Tannehill. I think if the Colts have another bad year, you might not be able to say that about Andrew Luck. Obviously RGIII is the biggest disappointed from those guys on that list.
i dont expect that, in fact i think first rounders tend to believe the hype generated about them. most of these guys have been hearing for at least four years about how great they are, and how they will excel in the pros. and then when they get to the pro game, and find it is way different than the college game, they tend to fold somewhat. there are a few though that do make it in the pros, and do very well. but imo the better pro quarterbacks are found in the third through fifth rounds, and sometimes are undrafted free agents.
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