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Old 01-05-2017, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
2,857 posts, read 1,453,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illegal Hands to the Face View Post
Disagree....Cousins isn't nearly as accomplished as Luck....Skins have probably have at least 2 more wins with Luck under center....Look at what Luck has done with Indy on basically a horrible team
I never said Cousins was better than Luck. Ever. Re-read my statement, please. I was talking about the state of the Redskins.
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
2,857 posts, read 1,453,160 times
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^^^

Nah, our defense was the biggest reason why we missed the playoffs. The skins finally took care of that problem today by firing our DC. (I know, this is off-topic now, so I'll revert back to the original topic).

But, Luck is a great QB, and definitely better than Cousins, but he's always been a good QB, just doesn't have a supporting cast and an O-line. The issue with Cousins is that it took him 2 years to get to the point where he is today, but Cousins makes poor decisions in critical times of the game. Luck has been known to do that, also, but less frequent and makes up for it in many ways. You can tell that Luck studied the craft of the position since he was a kid.

I guess I see where you're coming from though. Luck, even with a shat O-line, still makes plays. I actually wonder if the Redskins had a bad O-line, if Cousins would be at the same caliber? Probably not.
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Mooresville, NC
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Not sure I could put Luck in the "great QB" discussion. He's got talent but he's not proven to be consistently "great" IMO.
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,756 posts, read 4,238,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Your team missed the playoffs by one game....

You don't think Luck is worth one win over Cousins? Luck threw for more TD's and had nearly identical stats otherwise to Cousins behind a much inferior O line and with fewer weapons than Cousins had....

While Luck has a penchant for untimely INT's I definitely think he is worth one (if not more) wins over Cousins, they aren't in the same stratosphere talent wise
Purely conjecture. No facts based on this whatsoever. Here's a couple facts for you. The Redskins lost most of their games because of the defense. And fact, because their defense was so horrid this year, the entire defensive coaching staff got fired today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
As for RGIII, he may never start again or be effective if he does but there are so many teams that NEED a QB there will be a market for him if he wants to keep trying to recapture the glory.

Look how many chances Vick got....

I would put the over/under on RGIII's career at 3 more seasons....
In terms of starting, Mike Vick got two chances. Drafted by the Falcons, and then eventually winning the starting job in Philly. So, two chances as a starter. He's been a backup with other teams ever since. RGIII is not going to make it three more years. He's been in the league 4 seasons now. You expect him to make it another three based on his rookie season?
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
2,857 posts, read 1,453,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illegal Hands to the Face View Post
I like Cousins, I liked him at MSU....I remember when they drafted RG3 and him I thought maybe the better QB for the Redskins was the one they selected 2nd....The roll of the dice now is do you pay him the $20+ mil for 4 or 5 yrs....I think Cousins is in the top 15 starting QBs in the league. You hope he is able to get to that "elite" level as a 'Skins fan
I doubt he'd ever get to Brady or Rodgers level at least not in the next year or so, but I can easily see Cousins getting to a Brees, Rivers, or Stafford level. IMO, he's almost already there.

While his stats are good, he's not at that elite level of making good decisions or calling audibles when he sees something off. And he's not good at scrambling around...he's typically a statue in the pocket.

I'm kinda hoping he gets this deal, because I feel like this year, he had the pressure of "proving himself". He was a bit more tense this year than he was last year. When Kirk looks relaxed, he seems to find his rhythm. But, Cousins is a guy (lol not trying to sound like Cris Collinsworth) who when he gets in his rhythm, man, that dude can do some serious damage.
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Old 01-05-2017, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,838,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Howl View Post
Not sure I could put Luck in the "great QB" discussion. He's got talent but he's not proven to be consistently "great" IMO.
Thank you!

"If" any quarterback from 2012 can be called great at this stage, it would be Wilson, based off of what we've seen for five years...not based on what we think these guys could do with perfect health or a perfect supporting cast. Andrew Luck is certainly not the only gut with a crap line and subpar supporting cast--Wilson got bludgeoned this year (sacked 41 times), one of the worst running attacks in the league, and while he had a "down year" he still played admirably, played through injuries, and won his division. So far, through five seasons, peak Russell Wilson is a better player than peak Andrew Luck, and he's shown it in both the regular season and the playoffs. Could that change? Of course it could, I doubt either one of those two has truly hit their prime yet. But Wilson's best year and best performances smash Luck's best year and best performances, so far...

You hit the nail perfectly; the fact is that Luck has not consistently been great. Yes, he has certainly "flashed" greatness, and yes, he has a very high ceiling, could end up as one of the greats. But this thread is about what these guys have shown to this point, 5 full years in the books. He isn't the best quarterback to come out of that draft, but he was the #1 overall pick, so I don't think it's unfair to expect that he'd be the best guy from his class. But he isn't...

.....................

As for Cousins, I think your have to say he's in the same tier as Matt Stafford (I put Luck in that tier, too). For two straight seasons, if looking at the seasons individually, Cousins has been one of the ten best quarterbacks in the game. Again, not Top Ten based on his entire career, but he was one of the Ten best in '15, and one of the Ten best in '16. I've seen enough to place him with Stafford, who, incidentally, is another former #1 overall guy who hasn't 'quite' lived up to the billing. Consider this:

Stafford's first two complete seasons as a starter, 2011 and 2012, he played at a Top 6 level. His stat line for those two seasons goes 88.5 passer rating/.438 win percentage/61.6% completion percentage/10,005 passing yards/312.7 yards per game/7.2 yards per attempt/61 Td's, 33 int/4.4% touchdown percentage, 2.4% interception percentage. Compare Cousins first two seasons as a starter, 2015 and 2016:

99.4 passer rating/.531 win percentage/68.3 completion percentage/9,083 passing yards/283.8 yards per game/7.9 yards per attempt/54 Td's to 23 int/4.7% touchdown percentage, 2.0% interception percentage...

Hell, he's already better than Stafford was after two complete years as the starter, and he did it without anobody even remotely comparable to Megatron to aid him, or a defense (particularly Detroit's D-line those years) even ad good as Detroit's to help keep pressure off of him. If he's not as good as Matt Stafford, who the hell is?

Cousins gets a bad rap. Absolutely he brought some of it on himself, and he's directly responsible for two of our losses this year. But he's better than he's being given credit for, and I'm gonna tell you, if there's another year like this, if #1 overall pick Luck doesn't create some seperation in The coming season, are we seriously having a conversation that Luck is still better than Cousins? As it is, he is better than Cousins, but the eye test and the numbers suggest the gap is not nearly as wide as some of you all think. Luck certainly contributed to a few losses himself, not only this year, but in years past. He has the tendency to go into full-on gunslinger mode, passing the ball to your team/my team/everybody's team, is a rather inaccurate passer, I'm not understanding where all this love for Luck is coming from. He's showcased many a flaw and has wilted in some pressure games (like Houston a few weeks ago, when he had the chance to make a statement win and seal a very winnable division), and as the #1 overall pick, he should be critiqued harshly...

He's a good player. He can be great. He's not the only guy to deal with poor surrounding talent and injuries; other guys have dealt with it better. He's thrown his team out of games as well. Another "close" season between he and Cousins, I think the narrative changes on how good Luck actually is...

Last edited by murksiderock; 01-05-2017 at 05:17 PM..
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Old 01-06-2017, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,756 posts, read 4,238,850 times
Reputation: 3829
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnymarkjiz View Post
I doubt he'd ever get to Brady or Rodgers level at least not in the next year or so, but I can easily see Cousins getting to a Brees, Rivers, or Stafford level. IMO, he's almost already there.

While his stats are good, he's not at that elite level of making good decisions or calling audibles when he sees something off. And he's not good at scrambling around...he's typically a statue in the pocket.

I'm kinda hoping he gets this deal, because I feel like this year, he had the pressure of "proving himself". He was a bit more tense this year than he was last year. When Kirk looks relaxed, he seems to find his rhythm. But, Cousins is a guy (lol not trying to sound like Cris Collinsworth) who when he gets in his rhythm, man, that dude can do some serious damage.
I tend to believe that what goes into making a quarterback the best ever is being on a solid, balanced team with a great defense. I think that's helped Tom Brady over the years. I think it's helped Aaron Rodgers. So much so that by the time the team does hit a snag where the defense is not so good, the game has slowed down so much for the quarterback that he's able to take more burden on his shoulders and lead the team to victories despite having a team that needs upgrades.

Where as, you stick a good, young, quarterback on a lousy team with no defense, he might get you to 8 wins, but the challenge is too great for him at this point in his career to lead that team to a consistent playoff berth. I think that is what we have with the Redskins and Kirk Cousins right now. He's a good quarterback. Anybody who says otherwise is just a hater and has not watched him play more than a couple games this year. He's good enough to lead any contender to the Super Bowl, but he has to be on a team that has a great defense and a solid running game. He didn't have that with Washington these past two seasons, yet he's led them to a division title, a playoff berth, and two winning seasons. Having an improved defense - even if it's just middle of the pack improved, will probably be the defense.
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Old 01-06-2017, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,756 posts, read 4,238,850 times
Reputation: 3829
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Not understanding the Cousins love at all. He is above average no where near elite not top 5..... not top 10
Going back to this post, ESPN puts out a year's end total QB rating of all quarterbacks. ESPN is among the strongest and most accurate when it comes to their methodologies in determining total QBR. That said, Kirk Cousins is ranked 5th this year.

NFL Total Quarterback Rating - National Football League - ESPN
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:08 PM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,861,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy37 View Post
Going back to this post, ESPN puts out a year's end total QB rating of all quarterbacks. ESPN is among the strongest and most accurate when it comes to their methodologies in determining total QBR. That said, Kirk Cousins is ranked 5th this year.

NFL Total Quarterback Rating - National Football League - ESPN
Kirk Cousins 6th and 5th in 2015 and 2016 respectively.

Tyrod Taylor 7th and 9th in 2015 and 2016 respectively.



Sammy Watkins missing half the season this year really hurt Taylor too. But it looks like my Bills foolishly want to go back to the days of EJ Manuel/Fitzpatrick/Edwards and Losman. Personally, I think we are going to do an intentional tank job if we get rid of Taylor and don't bring in a viable replacement like Romo/Garoppolo/Palmer. We may even take a QB at 10 with our first pick, but still, if we finish with 3-13 with that rookie QB we may be positioned even better in the 2018 draft which might have even better QB talent then 2017.
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