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Old 01-16-2017, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,187,619 times
Reputation: 4161

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Quote:
Originally Posted by echo7tango View Post
Marino was great, definitely. Probably one of the best pure passers of all time. But not the greatest QB of all time - no mobility. And no championships. Yes he is among the greatest QBs to have never won a championship.
(mod cut-one sentence deleted)Championships are won by teams, not individuals. Dan Marino didn't not win a title because he wasn't good enough, but because by and the large the Dolphins were complete s*** the majority of Marino's career. This is why the GOAT conversation is irrational, people prop up stats lie wins and Super Bowl victories (which are both TEAM accomplishments) as arguments.

The reason Montana (edit-language) rely on the ring argument is because they have no other argument, by every objective measure Dan Marino is a far superior quarterback. If you had to pick a QB to lead your team based on their attributes and statistical accomplishments without knowing their identities Marino would be the obvious choice. Blindly talking about rings falls short, all that tells me is that Joe Montana was drafted to a superior organization and got to play under one of the greatest coaches of all time while throwing the ball to a legendary WR and playing for teams stacked with talent while Marino got drafted to the Dolphins.

Sammy Baugh and Otto Graham can't even factor in because the eras they played in our so different that it's absurd to draw these arbitrary comparisons. This is another reason the GOAT argument is weak, you can never truly take into account the differences in eras.

"no mobility." Not being able to scramble didn't stop Marino from owning every single major passing record when he retired.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 01-17-2017 at 04:29 PM..

 
Old 01-16-2017, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 7,270,970 times
Reputation: 37474
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalbound12 View Post
That's completely ridiculous and absurd. Championships are won by teams, not individuals. Dan Marino didn't not win a title because he wasn't good enough, but because by and the large the Dolphins were complete s*** the majority of Marino's career. This is why the GOAT conversation is irrational, people prop up stats lie wins and Super Bowl victories (which are both TEAM accomplishments) as arguments.

The reason Montana jock sniffers rely on the ring argument is because they have no other argument, by every objective measure Dan Marino is a far superior quarterback. If you had to pick a QB to lead your team based on their attributes and statistical accomplishments without knowing their identities Marino would be the obvious choice. Blindly talking about rings falls short, all that tells me is that Joe Montana was drafted to a superior organization and got to play under one of the greatest coaches of all time while throwing the ball to a legendary WR and playing for teams stacked with talent while Marino got drafted to the Dolphins.

Sammy Baugh and Otto Graham can't even factor in because the eras they played in our so different that it's absurd to draw these arbitrary comparisons. This is another reason the GOAT argument is weak, you can never truly take into account the differences in eras.

LOL@ "no mobility." Not being able to scramble didn't stop Marino from owning every single major passing record when he retired.


Joe Montana got to play for a great coach and great organization (which was so 'great' that it was 2-14 the year before he was drafted - whereas Marino was drafted by the defending AFC champions - and had never even sniffed an NFL title), while Dan was stuck getting drafted by some team that had had only 1 losing campaign in the 13 seasons since the merger, and which was led by the all-time winningest coach in NFL history, a two-time Super Bowl champion, who made it to six Super Bowls, and who finished his career with a gaudy .676 winning percentage over 33 seasons (and the second coach he played under also had two Super Bowl titles to his name)!





And if it was purely a stats calculus then postseason stats would have been taken into account. And while you're all googly-eyed over regular season stats, pre-Brady it was Montana who pretty much owned every postseason passing record. Oh, wait -- you don't care about championships, so all those Super Bowl touchdown passes thrown by Montana are meaningless compared to touchdown passes thrown in weeks three, seven and eleven of the regular season by Marino?



Actually, I'm a big fan of Marino. But your argument is absurd. And to actually read someone who complains that poor, poor, poor Dan Marino was victimized by having to toil under Don Shula for the Dolphins organization? That's priceless, dude!

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 01-17-2017 at 04:30 PM..
 
Old 01-16-2017, 04:51 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
2,800 posts, read 1,768,333 times
Reputation: 1732
Quote:
Originally Posted by everwinter View Post
For modern day quarterbacks, I'll always have Peyton Manning ahead of Brady for the sole reason that Manning went to the Super Bowl 4x under 4 different head coaches. That stat is astounding when you really think about it. It takes most teams/qbs years & years to gel & progress. I'm very confident that if Manning got to stay with one coach his entire career that he'd have many more championships (if debaters want to base this on championships.) Manning is Mr. Consistent. That stat shows that it's less about the team & supporting cast & more about Manning's superior QB ability. You can't say that for most other QBs.

Brady fans love to counter with, well Brady never got this chance so we'll never know if he could have done the same. So what. Manning did, & he DID it. I've heard Brady fans say Brady had to play in lousy weather whereas Marino got to play in ideal conditions. Same thing. When speaking of QB alone, it's hard to debate & isolate player vs team, but the stat in the previous paragraph is as good a stat as any to support a player vs the team.

Also worth looking at is his college career in Tennessee, because Manning brought quick success there also. He started 3rd string as a freshman, but by the 4th game he already earned the starting spot & started turning the Tennessee team around & helping them get wins. It took Brady until his 3rd season just to get the starting spot.
So why are you punishing other QB's for having more coaches but praising Manning?Many times how many coaches a QB has is not something a QB has anything to do with. Lets also remember that Manning has played awful in a majority of his playoff games including the two Super Bowl runs.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,187,619 times
Reputation: 4161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
Poor Dan Marino!

Joe Montana got to play for a great coach and great organization (which was so 'great' that it was 2-14 the year before he was drafted - whereas Marino was drafted by the defending AFC champions - and had never even sniffed an NFL title), while Dan was stuck getting drafted by some team that had had only 1 losing campaign in the 13 seasons since the merger, and which was led by the all-time winningest coach in NFL history, a two-time Super Bowl champion, who made it to six Super Bowls, and who finished his career with a gaudy .676 winning percentage over 33 seasons (and the second coach he played under also had two Super Bowl titles to his name)!
The Pats were bad when Tom Brady went there and the Raiders were a top flight team, but over the course of Brady's career the Patriots have clearly become an iconic, cornerstone franchise while the Raiders (this year not withstanding) have been a laughable franchise adrift. Yeah when Montana went to the Niners they were bad but clearly over the course of his career they became juggernauts and for most of his time in the Bay Area he played with rosters loaded with pro bowl/all pro talent on both sides of the ball. Marino got drafted to a stable organization that deteriorated over the course of his career there. By the time Marino got there Shula was starting to phone it in, but Marino put up the greatest season for a QB of all time (to that point) in 1984 when Miami was still a decent franchise. By the time Marino retired after 1999 they were a shell of their former glory. The Dolphins haven't been an elite franchise since the 1970s.



Quote:
And if it was purely a stats calculus then postseason stats would have been taken into account. And while you're all googly-eyed over regular season stats, pre-Brady it was Montana who pretty much owned every postseason passing record. Oh, wait -- you don't care about championships, so all those Super Bowl touchdown passes thrown by Montana are meaningless compared to touchdown passes thrown in weeks three, seven and eleven of the regular season by Marino?
I'm not saying Montana wasn't great, in fact I'm not saying he's not the "GOAT", rather I'm arguing the whole concept of there being a "GOAT" is laughable. Montana got all of those postseason attempts because he played for the best team of the 1980s and got a lot of opportunities to play in the postseason. Furthermore, he was playing on the best team on the field more often than not with far less pressure on him to perform than Marino. One dimensional teams like the Marino led Dolphins and the Manning led Colts get exposed in the postseason more often than not. If Marino was off the Dolphins season ended, if Montana wasn't feeling it he had a the best franchise in football (at the time) to conceal that.




Quote:
Actually, I'm a big fan of Marino. And to actually read someone who complains that poor, poor, poor Dan Marino was victimized by having to toil under Don Shula for the Dolphins organization?
And I like Montana (he's a ND man)( mod cut-one sentence deleted) I'm sure a player drafted in 1996 to the Cowboys had visions of Super Bowl glory dancing in his head. The Dolphins took one of the most talented and capable quarterbacks to ever play the game and squandered a legendary career by never building around him and the 49ers took a middle tier quarterback (from a pure physical and skill standpoint) and built some of the strongest rosters of all time around him and highlighted his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 01-17-2017 at 04:37 PM..
 
Old 01-16-2017, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,823,898 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by everwinter View Post
Rodgers may be in the conversation someday regarding top QBs. Looking at this chart comparing his first 150 games with other top QBs, & his yards, TDs, & interception numbers are tops.

Comparing Aaron Rodgers and other NFL quarterbacks
Rodgers has to win more rings, at least one more. And by no means am I suggesting he doesn't do it, but being the most naturally gifted QB of all time isn't gonna mean much if he finishes with only one chip, not when you have players like Manning, Montana, Brady with more rings. Rodgers has the talent gap that could seperate him from many players but that is a moot point if he doesn't win!
 
Old 01-16-2017, 08:59 PM
 
Location: SF Giants Nation 2010◆2012◆2014
1,026 posts, read 581,599 times
Reputation: 717
Anyone saying you can't have a GOAT selection has their head in the sand. Or is a Marino apologist. Of course football is a team sport and no team's fortunes rest on any one player (see Dan Fouts and the SD Chargers and Dan Marino and the Miami Dolphins for two quick examples, or even Archie Manning and the NO Saints, or Jim Plunkett when he was with the NE Patriots)...

However, the quarterback position is unique in football. Any team's offensive fortunes begin with the QB. Almost every single offensive play involves the QB. The QB is unique in sports - maybe the point guard comes close in hoops, a little.

In football it isn't easy to win without a very good or better QB. But the inverse is not necessarily true: if you have an excellent QB, it doesn't mean you will win. Again, see Fouts, Marino, the elder Manning, and the Pats' Plunkett. And many others.

Add to that the fact that, as a QB and more so for the QB position than at any other position in all of sports, the QB is expected to win games. The QB is expected to win championships.

Until Elway won SBs 32 & 33, his entire career (like Marino's) had the "but" smudge because he had lost SBs 21, 22 & 24.

Bottom line: quarterbacks are paid to win, and winning is expected from that position more than from any other in the NFL.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,187,619 times
Reputation: 4161
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Rodgers has to win more rings, at least one more. And by no means am I suggesting he doesn't do it, but being the most naturally gifted QB of all time isn't gonna mean much if he finishes with only one chip, not when you have players like Manning, Montana, Brady with more rings. Rodgers has the talent gap that could seperate him from many players but that is a moot point if he doesn't win!
Yeah, if only Rodgers wouldn't have let score Seattle score so many points on him while he was out there on defense in 2014. Or that time he was a total bum and let Larry Fiztgerald make that huge play in OT last year in Arizona, I mean can you believe he missed those tackles? Or that time in 2009 when he let Kurt Warner and the Cardinals hang almost 50 on him. Or who could forget when he couldn't tackle Kaepernick in 2012? Brady, Montana, and Manning always make those clutch tackles.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 10:53 PM
 
16,522 posts, read 20,966,979 times
Reputation: 47952
Thread re-opened. No personal attacks.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 01-17-2017 at 04:40 PM..
 
Old 01-17-2017, 06:31 PM
 
4,979 posts, read 11,044,361 times
Reputation: 11808
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalbound12 View Post
Yeah, if only Rodgers wouldn't have let score Seattle score so many points on him while he was out there on defense in 2014. Or that time he was a total bum and let Larry Fiztgerald make that huge play in OT last year in Arizona, I mean can you believe he missed those tackles? Or that time in 2009 when he let Kurt Warner and the Cardinals hang almost 50 on him. Or who could forget when he couldn't tackle Kaepernick in 2012? Brady, Montana, and Manning always make those clutch tackles.
Well Rodgers wouldn't have had to try and stop Seattle from scoring more points than his team if he could put up more for his? Or maybe you think 19-34 for 178 yards 1 TD 2 interceptions and QB rating of 55 is a good day at the office?

He didn't exactly set the word on fire with his 77 rating against Arizona last year either....

Fight it all you want, there is a GOAT discussion with QB's and Super Bowl Championships will ALWAYS be part of the discussion...a BIG part of the discussion

Rodgers is probably the most talented QB ever, I've been watching football for over 40 years and I can't think of another talent like him.

However, he'll never enter the GOAT discussion unless he wins more Superbowls...plural....1 more won't do it....2 might unless Brady wins more
 
Old 01-17-2017, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,747 posts, read 2,368,848 times
Reputation: 2607
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Well Rodgers wouldn't have had to try and stop Seattle from scoring more points than his team if he could put up more for his? Or maybe you think 19-34 for 178 yards 1 TD 2 interceptions and QB rating of 55 is a good day at the office?

He didn't exactly set the word on fire with his 77 rating against Arizona last year either....

2 might unless Brady wins more
Those games were bad, but they were on the road. A 77 rating (against Arizona) is still better than Brady's postseason rating avg when away. Susan posted this in the Packer thread. Some interesting #s at the bottom.


Rodgers Road Warrior
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