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View Poll Results: Are Ryan, Rothlisberger, Brady & Rogers the 4 best NFL QB's today?
Yes, no doubt about it 21 61.76%
Nope, not even close 1 2.94%
Maybe they are this year, debatable. 12 35.29%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2017, 08:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
No actually it does still work. Peyton has the all time yardage total and an unbelievable career. Yet despite 2 rings the feeling is his lack of iconic playoff performances keeps him off Mt Rushmore on the all time list. However his long string of regular season success constantly put him as a top 2 QB at any given time. Ryan has no such string yet.

The talk today is Brady and if he is the GOAT. People debate Mt Rushmore all the time, the names Montana, Unitas etc are constantly mentioned. Know who is rarely mentioned despite his resume? Peyton Manning.
I disagree with your opinion of Peyton. He might not be on Brady's level but I still put him with the likes of Elway, Montana, Unitas, Marino and all the other QBs. Peyton easily enters the Mt Rushmore conversation.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
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I have Brady as the GOAT based on Championships.. because otherwise, i have no way of seperating the top 5 or so on my list.. otherwise they are all equal... That doesn't make him head and shoulders better than any of the top 5 or 10 on my list.. it just may way of ordering them..

If i were starting a team today... i would have a hard time picking Brady over Montana or Manning or Unitas.. In the end, i might go with Brady but i certainly would NOT pencil him in without much thought. There is a helluva lot more to it than just RINGs.. some argue rings are the end all - be all but that doesn't hold water in my book. I think that once you have proven that you can lead a team to a Super Bowl title, nothing else needs to be said in that respect.. Your a champion, you proved it.. end of story..

Now, I certainly think that 6 rings speaks louder than 1 or 2.. but i don't think 4 rings says much more than 3 or 2.. your just splitting hairs at this point.. at some point it becomes a beauty contest and we all know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. Just because I might put Brady on top because of his 4 (might soon be 5) rings doesn't mean that another fans argument that Manning's 2 rings and other accomplishments are equal or better don't have any merit. They absolutely do!

Anyone that actually watched PEYTON MANNING Play over the course of his career and didn't come away thinking he was absolutely BRILLIANT and one of the BEST QBs ever simply doesn't see the game the way I do.. and that's ok.. because beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,259 posts, read 2,882,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
I was actually kicking around the idea that had Rodgers won this SB he would start entering the conversation.
I did too, but now Rodgers has to be under the same gun that Manning was after winning his first in '06. Rodgers has a losing playoff record since winning SB45, and yesterday became the first quarterback in league history to make six consecutive postseasons without returning to another Super Bowl, after winning the first one...

12 seasons in:

Aaron Rodgers
SB45 champion, SB45 MVP, 2x MVP, 3x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowl, 2016 passing TD leader, 5x NFC North champion, 8 playoff app, 1-2 NFCCG, 1-0 Super Bowl
(Reg. Season)90-45 (.667), 104.1 rtg, 65.1 comp%, 7.9 ypa, 259.3 ypg, 4.1 td/int ratio (297-72), 6.4/1.5 td/int%
(Playoffs)9-7 (.563), 99.4 rtg, 63.5 comp%, 7.5 ypa, 278.6 ypg, 3.6 td/int ratio (36-10), 6.1/1.7 td/int%
(Peak Season)2011--122.5 rtg, 68.3 comp%, 4643/45/6, 9.2 ypa, 309.5 ypg, 7.5 td/int ratio, 9/1.2 td/int%, 15-1 Reg season, 0-1 playoffs, MVP

Peyton Manning
SB41 champion, SB 41 MVP, 4x MVP, 8x All-Pro, 10x Pro Bowl, 2004 OPOY, 3x passing TD leader, 2x passing yds leader, 7x AFC South/East champion, 10 playoff app, 2-1 AFCCG, 1-1 Super Bowl
(Reg. Season)121-71 (.630), 95.6 rtg, 64.8 comp%, 7.7 ypa, 261.1 ypg, 2.0 td/int ratio (366-181), 5.6/2.8 td/int%
(Playoffs)9-9 (.500), 87.5 rtg, 62 comp%, 7.4 ypa, 286.9 ypg, 1.5 td/int ratio (28-19), 4/2.7 td/int%
(Peak Season)2004--121.1 rtg, 67.7 comp%, 4557/49/10, 9.2 ypa, 284.8 ypg, 4.9 td/int ratio, 9.9/2 td/int%, 12-4 Reg season, 1-1 playoffs, MVP

Rodgers has three less seasons as a starter, but their careers are very comparable through 12 seasons. The biggest, most glaring differences are that Manning had played in two Super Bowls, and had a winning record in the conference championship. Both players at their peak seasons to this point are nearly equals, though an easily compelling argument can be made that peak Rodgers was in fact better...

This is why he should get the same critique that Manning received. A player of that other-worldly skill has to be held to a higher standard. I'm not really sure why so many Rodgers backers are bent on giving him a pass on the judgement that has been applied to every great quarterback before him, including Favre. The reality is, when a team loses, it is NEVER all the quarterback's fault. But the truly GREAT quarterbacks are expected to win and win at the highest levels, not just division titles and a playoff game or two, not just a string of playoff appearances. In recent NFL history was there a more harshly critiqued QB than Manning? And it's hard to say it was undeserved--when you produce record-breaking numbers and double digit win seasons and win MVP and division titles year after year, the natural expectation is that it progresses to SB appearances and championships...

So to come back full circle, I don't think Rodgers is far off from being in the GOAT conversation. He is, essentially, already as good or better than Manning in his first prime, and Manning was clearly the best QB of his day. But he ain't getting any younger. Each year that goes by that he fails to first get back to, and ultimately win, the Super Bowl, he makes other great QB's cases stronger and further keeps himself out of that top level All-Time GOAT discussion...
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,738 posts, read 4,264,581 times
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Murk.. i like your analysis.. really in-depth

But if i may. What exactly did Rodgers do yesterday that he didn't do the week prior against Dallas?.. and what was it his teammates did they that they didn't do the week prior.. ?

It tickled me to no end to see the Packers fail yesterday.. (selfishly i admit)... but it was NOT RODGERS failure as much as it was the teams.. The Packers were down 17-0 and all Rodgers had done was drive his team down the field on their first two possessions completing 8 of 10 for ~100 yards only to see Mason Crosby miss an easy 41 yard FG.. geez he made 2 of 50plus the week before in the final minutes of the GAME! Then Ripkowski fumbles for the first time in his career inside the 10 yard line no less! What exactly had Rodgers done up to this point that would be considered FAILING>. i don't see it.

Suddenly the Packers are down 17-0 when at the bare minimum it should have been 17-10 with the BALL! Now the Packers get tight, and start dropping passes.. how many passes did they drop last week and how many did they drop yesterday.. ?

That's my whole argument about this GOAT thing.. let your EYE BALLS tell you who the best ever is.. and then if its too close to call use things like your analysis to separate the greats from the greats.

IMO, if you are among the greatest of the greats.. then you are consistently leading your team to the playoffs. The great QBs will be able to overcome team deficiencies like **** POOR defenses who couldn't stop a nose bleed over the course of a 16 game regular season and get their teams into the Playoffs. But once your in a single elimination tournament, if you don't have a complete team top to bottom, i don't give a crap who your QB is.. your not advancing to a SUPER BOWL and i don't think you can legitimately downgrade a QB because his TEAM (TEAM) is not good enough to make it to the SUPER BOWL every year!

BTW, my eyeballs tell me that Rodgers is the BEST in the game right now and has been for the past 5 plus years.. i don't care if he never wins another SB.. he is on the Mt Rushmore if he retires tomorrow.. i don't need stats to tell me this my eyes are working just fine..

Anyway, back to your analysis.. really well done...
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Old 01-23-2017, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,259 posts, read 2,882,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Murk.. i like your analysis.. really in-depth

But if i may. What exactly did Rodgers do yesterday that he didn't do the week prior against Dallas?.. and what was it his teammates did they that they didn't do the week prior.. ?

It tickled me to no end to see the Packers fail yesterday.. (selfishly i admit)... but it was NOT RODGERS failure as much as it was the teams.. The Packers were down 17-0 and all Rodgers had done was drive his team down the field on their first two possessions completing 8 of 10 for ~100 yards only to see Mason Crosby miss an easy 41 yard FG.. geez he made 2 of 50plus the week before in the final minutes of the GAME! Then Ripkowski fumbles for the first time in his career inside the 10 yard line no less! What exactly had Rodgers done up to this point that would be considered FAILING>. i don't see it.

Suddenly the Packers are down 17-0 when at the bare minimum it should have been 17-10 with the BALL! Now the Packers get tight, and start dropping passes.. how many passes did they drop last week and how many did they drop yesterday.. ?

That's my whole argument about this GOAT thing.. let your EYE BALLS tell you who the best ever is.. and then if its too close to call use things like your analysis to separate the greats from the greats.

IMO, if you are among the greatest of the greats.. then you are consistently leading your team to the playoffs. The great QBs will be able to overcome team deficiencies like **** POOR defenses who couldn't stop a nose bleed over the course of a 16 game regular season and get their teams into the Playoffs. But once your in a single elimination tournament, if you don't have a complete team top to bottom, i don't give a crap who your QB is.. your not advancing to a SUPER BOWL and i don't think you can legitimately downgrade a QB because his TEAM (TEAM) is not good enough to make it to the SUPER BOWL every year!

BTW, my eyeballs tell me that Rodgers is the BEST in the game right now and has been for the past 5 plus years.. i don't care if he never wins another SB.. he is on the Mt Rushmore if he retires tomorrow.. i don't need stats to tell me this my eyes are working just fine..

Anyway, back to your analysis.. really well done...
Rodgers didn't do anything differently or wrong yesterday, I can agree on that! He had poor protection, drops by the wideouts, and because of those things couldn't be as effective as he normally would be...

I also agree that the loss is a team failure more so than a Rodgers failure. However, it goes under the quarterback W-L record for him anyway, the same way it goes under every quarterback's W-L record. Certainly he's played a few worse playoff games than yesterday, but it still means he's winless in the NFC Championship, losing playoff record since '10. And while yesterday wasn't so much his fault, I can think of a couple of those L's since 2010 that he more directly contributed to!

For me, it's not that he has to make the Super Bowl every year. But to reach that higher level of GOAT consideration, one would think he has more appearances...

At 12 seasons into their careers, Manning had played in two Super Bowls, Brady had played in 5, his predecessor Favre had played in 2, Elway had played in 3, Montana had played in 4, Unitas had played in 3 NFL Championship Games, so on and so forth...

As it stands, his placement on the All-Time list is on the same tier as Brees and Young and Marino and Kelly and others of that class right now. He's not far off from the next tier, I will wholeheartedly state that, but when talking All-Timers, how do we seperate them? The players I named in the previous paragraph are certainly more decorated than Rodgers, and had more consistent runs of success. Plus, it can at least be 'argued' that those guys in that next tier were better players than Rodgers, pound for pound....not that I'd necessarily agree with that for each player, but the case for those guys is much stronger than the case for the guys within Rodgers' tier...

I go with my eyeballs as well, and I'm willing to concede that Rodgers certainly is amongst the best I ever saw do it. Of course, I'm younger and only been watching football since 1999, but still lol. There is no way I'd put him on par with Brady or Manning yet, not in a full on evaluation. Rodgers hasn't achieved those two guys levels of success. Of players I've watched though, I'm willing to say he may have taken a step ahead of Brees and peak Warner (of course, my issue with Warner is a whole other deal). At the very least, Rodgers is on that tier of Brees, Favre, Warner, guys I saw play. He definitely isn't behind them...

He will have to have many more years of greatness and win more hardware to unlock the level of Manning and Brady. I've never saw a QB as clutch as Brady, as lethal. Rodgers is deadly but he ain't that. I never saw a QB win year after year with the field vision and direction that Manning had. Rodgers has that too, but you saw Manning in his prime just like I did--guy was on another level...

Rodgers is close, though!
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Old 01-23-2017, 03:33 PM
 
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What defines greatness in such a team sport? SB wins, total yards, TD's, completion %, QB rating, athletic ability? We could all go around in circles and never come up with an answer.

In Aaron Rodgers having gone to one SB and won better than Jim Kelly who got to 4 and lost them all? How about a Dan Marino? What about Bradshaw with 4 SB wins yet he's never in the GOAT conversation because of the defense, and maybe rightfully so. Players and coaches to a tee say how hard it is to get into the playoffs, let along win 1 game in the playoffs, and to get all the way to the Super Bowl is SO difficult and to win it even more so.

This is a team sport, and regardless of the coach or the system in place, it comes down to execution on the field of play. I am not a fan of stats but Brady's' stats are there. At the end of the day, there is just one goal each season for any team, and that is to win the Super Bowl. QB's like Eli, Flacco, and others who have won could be deemed 2nd tier QB's at best.

In 15 healthy seasons (16 years but 1 out with injury), Brady has been the QB on a team that has reached the AFC Championship game 11 times (7-4) and is about to play in his 7th Super Bowl (hopefully 5-2 when all is said and done). I look at that alone, and then look at his stats, and I honestly just don't see another QB that could be considered the greatest ever over Brady. Montana went 4-0, but Brady has reached 3 more which speaks volumes. And we could argue being in th era of free agency and the NFL's wish for parity and Brady STILL doing what he started 16 years ago - call me a homer but Brady is the best.
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Old 01-23-2017, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
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Murk,
I don't see any reason to believe that Rodgers will not continue to play at the same level he is playing now for the next 3-5 years.. But, i am not sold the Packers will ever see another SB.. they are simply NOT built to be SB contenders.. McCarthy seems to be really fond of himself but to be honest. I think he is just Andy Reid wearing a mask.... his offense is TOO ONE DIMENSIONAL.. I realize he did catch lightning in a bottle back in 2010, riding Rodgers all the way to a SB title but since then they have fallen flat.. and i put most of the blame on him vs Rodgers..
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Old 01-23-2017, 04:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
Murk,
I don't see any reason to believe that Rodgers will not continue to play at the same level he is playing now for the next 3-5 years.. But, i am not sold the Packers will ever see another SB.. they are simply NOT built to be SB contenders.. McCarthy seems to be really fond of himself but to be honest. I think he is just Andy Reid wearing a mask.... his offense is TOO ONE DIMENSIONAL.. I realize he did catch lightning in a bottle back in 2010, riding Rodgers all the way to a SB title but since then they have fallen flat.. and i put most of the blame on him vs Rodgers..
They do seem too similar to Peyton's Colts. A defense that consistently underachieves and no consistent running game to rely on. I've thought for a couple years now, McCarthy, the GM, somebody in Green Bay has to be on the hot seat. Rodgers is the premier QB in today's NFL. But only one conference title to show for it while the Seahawks and Giants have won it twice each in Rodgers time. And other great QBs like Peyton and Brady have been twice each in the last four years.
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Old 01-23-2017, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
They do seem too similar to Peyton's Colts. A defense that consistently underachieves and no consistent running game to rely on. I've thought for a couple years now, McCarthy, the GM, somebody in Green Bay has to be on the hot seat. Rodgers is the premier QB in today's NFL. But only one conference title to show for it while the Seahawks and Giants have won it twice each in Rodgers time. And other great QBs like Peyton and Brady have been twice each in the last four years.
Exactly that! There are a ton of parallels that can be made between Rodgers/Manning or '10s Packers/00s Colts...

Another reason why I say, Manning was consistently flamed for the Colts playoff shortcomings, and all of us watching him play know he was far more responsible for them even being in position to make deep playoff runs in the first place! Not unlike Rodgers at all, so why should Aaron Rodgers get some different level of treatment than someone as consistently great as Manning?

@mco, I swear to God I started to type on here that McCarthy was a better version of Andy Reid, but I held off! He is very fond of himself, and while I think he's one if the better coaches in the league, his resume of play calling and roster building/team management (along with Thompson of course) isn't exactly top notch. I hate his snarky, pompous little attitude but I do think he's a better than decent coach..

An argument can be made that Rodgers has made an otherwise average coach look better than he actually is. Whether that is actually true is debatable but it is certainly an argument that can be made! You take away that lightning in a bottle 2010 season that you and I have both previously mentioned, McCarthy has otherwise been just a very good coach but a man unable to repeat championship success...

This isn't unlike Mike Tomlin, another longtime coach who is very good but more so benefitted from inheriting a playoff caliber roster that attributed to two Super Bowl appearances in his first four seasons. Something about his coaching style allows a lack of discipline, his team's have dealt with behavioral/discipline issues his entire tenure. I may start a coaches thread...

@metalman, everything you alluded to in your first paragraph goes into QB greatness. It isn't just one thing specifically, it's a compilation of factors of good quarterbacking in even beyond statistics. Overall wins and losses and championship pedigree hold a heavy weight, though. They have to, otherwise, we just say every good quarterback is equal...
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD/Washington DC
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Matt Ryan - probably deserves to the NFL MVP; was already a good QB who had a genuinely all-time great season in 2016

Tom Brady - would deserve to be NFL MVP if he didn't miss the first four games; one of the top 3 or 4 quarterbacks of all-time

Aaron Rodgers - makes plays no other QB in the league can make when he's on (including the two guys above); was great down the stretch this season and probably will be in the MVP conversation

Ben Roethlisberger - excellent quarterback for a long time and likely future HOF, but not at the level he used to be (is merely good now rather than very good or great like he was a few years ago; the talent around him is masking his drop-off from great/very good to good)

I think the first three guys listed might be the top 3 QBs in the NFL right now, but I don't think Roethlisberger is the #4 guy (for a few years, he was a top 4 QB though). That's not meant to be a knock on Ben Roethlisberger BTW.
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