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Old 02-18-2017, 08:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
I'm not saying TO wasn't a HoF worthy WR, but second or third greatest in history? You need to period adjust here.
I said arguably 2nd or 3rd. Nothing wrong with that. If we period adjust, that is where the arguably comes in. If we just go purely by stats than he is likely 2nd or 3rd. Keep in mind too, T.O. did not play exclusively in a pass happy league. He came into the league back in '96 or so? It was still a running league in '96. Current guys like Julio, Green, Beckham, Brown, Megatron are the ones whos careers were entirely in the pass happy NFL.

Even if you down grade him to say 5-7 best all time he should still get in by at least second ballot. How many 5-7 top QBs all time are going to wait till third ballot to get in? Probably zero. They'd all get in on first ballot.
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
A 6 week suspension for violating the NFL personal conduct policy. Accused twice of rape in 2008 in Tahoe and again in 2010 in Milledgeville, GA. Years of PR coaching to repair his public image isn't going to get him enough votes to ever get into the HOF. He's never been a league MVP. He's never been an All Pro. He only made 5 Pro Bowls. He's typically been the 4th to 6th best QB in the league and he's always played for a strong team. There will always be enough people who look at that, look at the character problem, and leave him off their ballot.
You are in denial if you think Big Ben will not make the HOF. He'll get in by second ballot. Book it. Not saying he should, but it will happen.
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Old 02-18-2017, 09:27 AM
 
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Also keep in mind that from 1999-2003, TO was catching passes from Jeff Garcia. Not exactly McNabb or Romo.
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Old 02-18-2017, 11:26 AM
 
1,172 posts, read 478,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
I said arguably 2nd or 3rd. Nothing wrong with that. If we period adjust, that is where the arguably comes in. If we just go purely by stats than he is likely 2nd or 3rd. Keep in mind too, T.O. did not play exclusively in a pass happy league. He came into the league back in '96 or so? It was still a running league in '96. Current guys like Julio, Green, Beckham, Brown, Megatron are the ones whos careers were entirely in the pass happy NFL.

Even if you down grade him to say 5-7 best all time he should still get in by at least second ballot. How many 5-7 top QBs all time are going to wait till third ballot to get in? Probably zero. They'd all get in on first ballot.
Why wouldn't one period adjust? The NFL passing game was very different when Don Hutson and Ray Berry and Steve Largent played. It seems only fair to me.

Also wondering when you believe the league stopped being a running league and how to show that tangibly. Feel free.

And for whatever reason, the voters seem to be much harder on WRs than QBs, possibly because they feel QBs affect on-field play more than those at other positions, possibly for other reasons. Feel free to complain to the HoF voters if you think that shouldn't be.

Anyway, it's not as simple as numbers. The voters apparently think the drops and teammate interactions are a delaying issue. And if the example of Cris Carter is any indication, the whining by TO and others could become a bit of a factor as well; Carter didn't make it in until his sixth try as finalist, and it's possible the whining about his perceived snub delayed things for him. And the TO whining has been off the charts compared to that regarding Carter.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Why wouldn't one period adjust? The NFL passing game was very different when Don Hutson and Ray Berry and Steve Largent played. It seems only fair to me.
Not saying we wouldn't. But still even with adjusting for playing period he's arguably top 3.
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Old 02-18-2017, 12:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Also wondering when you believe the league stopped being a running league and how to show that tangibly. Feel free.
You are really going to debate me on this? It was obviously some time in the early to mid 2000's when things started to become a passing league. Go look at the stats your self. I'll help you.

NFL Single-Season Passing Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

How many 5,000 yard passing seasons were there before 2007? One, by Marino. How many since 2008? Eight. Brees 5x and Peyton, Brady and Stafford one each.

Looking at just the top 50 all time single season passing leaders. 36 out of the 50 spots are held by players who played from 2008 to 2016. Six spots are held from players who played in the 8 year time frame between 2000 and 2007. Only 8 spots are held by players who played in the 20th century. Dating back to 1978 when the NFL switched to a 16 game regular season, there have been 20 seasons where QBs had a chance to play in 16 games (throwing out the two strike shortened seasons). So in more than double the seasons from the time period of 2008-2016 ( 9 seasons vs 20 seasons), we have less than 1/4th the same number of passers in the top 50 despite having an extra 11 seasons worth of passers.

That is pretty tangible IMO. I would say probably around 2010-2011 is when things really got pass crazy in the NFL but it started going that way in the early to mid 2000's.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
So there is this new argument against T.O. that I am hearing now. If he was so good why was he in on so many different teams in his prime? I have a couple issues with that argument.

1. Will we use the same argument against Randy Moss? Moss was on three different teams in his prime including nearly vanishing from the face of the earth in Oakland.

2. 49ers, Eagles, Cowboys they all moved on from Owens for one reason or another while he was in his prime. Okay, but were those wise moves by those teams? The 49ers and Eagles were not in any way more successful without him. So you could argue the teams made an error in not keeping Owens. Now Dallas probably still had success post T.O. but that was because Romo was gaining experience and Owens was also very near the end of his good playing days by then anyways.

The other argument we hear is that it is more of a passing league now. True. But will that fact be brought up and used to keep guys like Brees, Rivers, Big Ben, Eli out of the hall in their first two years of elegibility? Or will it only be used against receivers?


It seems you are obsessed about TO getting into the HOF?






Why the obsession ?
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:04 PM
 
1,172 posts, read 478,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
You are really going to debate me on this? It was obviously some time in the early to mid 2000's when things started to become a passing league. Go look at the stats your self. I'll help you.

NFL Single-Season Passing Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

How many 5,000 yard passing seasons were there before 2007? One, by Marino. How many since 2008? Eight. Brees 5x and Peyton, Brady and Stafford one each.

Looking at just the top 50 all time single season passing leaders. 36 out of the 50 spots are held by players who played from 2008 to 2016. Six spots are held from players who played in the 8 year time frame between 2000 and 2007. Only 8 spots are held by players who played in the 20th century. Dating back to 1978 when the NFL switched to a 16 game regular season, there have been 20 seasons where QBs had a chance to play in 16 games (throwing out the two strike shortened seasons). So in more than double the seasons from the time period of 2008-2016 ( 9 seasons vs 20 seasons), we have less than 1/4th the same number of passers in the top 50 despite having an extra 11 seasons worth of passers.

That is pretty tangible IMO. I would say probably around 2010-2011 is when things really got pass crazy in the NFL but it started going that way in the early to mid 2000's.
So, maybe year 2000? If so, note that TO's first big season, when he was first named 1st team all pro and went to his first pro bowl, happened in 2000. The difference between the stats he put up in his first four years and those from 2000-2008 (excluding 2007 when he was injured) is sizable. How much was that affected by how the game evolved? Interesting question.

Look, I'm not saying TO doesn't belong in the HoF. Of course he does. But is it a crime against humanity that he wasn't first ballot or has had to wait two years without getting in? Hardly. Lots of fine HoFers have had to wait a while before getting elected.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:09 PM
 
1,172 posts, read 478,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Not saying we wouldn't. But still even with adjusting for playing period he's arguably top 3.
I'd be interested in seeing that argument period-adjusted. Note that you'll have to figure Hutson, Berry, Rice, Largent, Alworth, and Warfield, among others, into the mix. Feel free.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:14 PM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,857,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
It seems you are obsessed about TO getting into the HOF?






Why the obsession ?
Are we not allowed to talk/debate about something other than Brady, Belicheck and the Pats? I simply feel that receivers in general don't get the respect they deserve. And a guy as accomplished as Owens not getting in by his second year of eligibility seems questionable to me. We all know he will eventually get in. So that is fine. It's not an obsession. Just something interesting to discuss. Now my Bills, that is an obsession.
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