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Old 06-25-2017, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 7,276,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmancpa View Post
Brady is #1 no matter how I look at it. I like some of the recent "daring" posts naming QB's others would not. But Brady has done his work in the era of the revolving door of free agency. He's been on a team that does not pay big bucks for players, thus Brady has only has Moss for a bit as a lock HOF receiver. Sure the league is about safety now, so comparing to the old-timers isn't a fair comparison. Brady is just a winner, period. His W-L % proves that. Ranking a QB is about the overall package, not just on stats or SB victories. Brady is on or near the top of almost every metric you could judge a QB on. Rounding out my list:

Montana
Manning (Peyton)
Bradshaw
Tarkenton

Tarkenton was my childhood favorite. I think he was ahead of his time with scrambling, and was amazing to watch.

Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Manning (Eli), Elway, Aikman, Young - honorable mentions
What clinches Brady for me is the winning.

Excluding 2000 when he was a rookie who played only one fourth quarter series, and 2008 when he went down for the season in the first game (first quarter, IIRC), he's been a starter for 15 seasons - 16 games/year 13x, 14 games in 2001, 12 games in 2016. 9+ wins every single season. As I've noted elsewhere, the next QB to finish his career with no losing seasons (counting only seasons in which a QB started a majority of a team's games) was Roger Staubach, at 8 seasons. Brady has almost doubled that mark thus far. It's the 14 division titles in 15 seasons. That's insane. It's the doing all of this without ever having a really vaunted running game and with a carousel of wide receivers who were mostly good just because Tom Brady was the guy flinging the ball their way (exceptions: Moss and Gronkowski, though as you note Moss' tenure was a mere 3 seasons, and Gronk is often injured). Also, it's the winning record even at every point in the postseason. I don't care that every time Brady has led the Patriots to the playoffs, the first game has been at Foxborough - the fact that they're 13-2 in those games? Insane. Divisional round games? 11-2. Insane. Conference championship appearances? 11 (way ahead of Mr. Montana at 7). And 7-4 in those games. 5-2 in Super Bowls. There's never a drop-off.

To be fair, I don't think it's unreasonable that some hold of Montana as the greatest of all time. I disagree, but I respect their stance and I don't think their conclusion is ridiculous. And I even accept that there's a small argument to be made for Manning. Four Super Bowl appearances under four different coaches is flat-out impressive. Also, I think you have to give significant credit to Belichick. But ultimately, we have to choose our greats based on what they do. And Brady has done it. And he's also done it in an era in which the game revolves more than ever around the QB position. It's hard for me to seriously consider QBs from earlier eras when defenses dominated and when the running game was a much bigger part of the NFL.
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:25 PM
 
47 posts, read 22,540 times
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1. Tom Brady
2. Warren Moon
3. Steve Young
4. Peyton Manning
5. Russell Wilson. He has replaced Dan Marino for me.
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:31 PM
 
6,449 posts, read 3,457,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
To be fair, I don't think it's unreasonable that some hold of Montana as the greatest of all time. I disagree, but I respect their stance and I don't think their conclusion is ridiculous. And I even accept that there's a small argument to be made for Manning. Four Super Bowl appearances under four different coaches is flat-out impressive. Also, I think you have to give significant credit to Belichick. But ultimately, we have to choose our greats based on what they do. And Brady has done it. And he's also done it in an era in which the game revolves more than ever around the QB position. It's hard for me to seriously consider QBs from earlier eras when defenses dominated and when the running game was a much bigger part of the NFL.
With players like Montana and Brady, the true greats, to really judge them you need to put all of the records and stats away and just watch their play on the field. Remember, receivers can drop balls, the O-line can miss rushes, etc etc. Brady, Montana - you'd have to be literally blind not to see the absolute greatness in their play.

Brady has never been a long ball artist like a Marino or Fouts. But his precision on the field is mesmerizing. Yes Montana had Rice, and that's part of the reason I put Brady ahead of Montana. Montana was 4-0 in SUper Bowls, Brady 5-2. That's 3 more Super Bowl appearances. And please don't tell me Brady rode the coattails of Belichick and his teammates to get there. Brady IS the on field reason why the Patriots have had such a run of success.

Again, I just can't put Brady anywhere else but #1, no matter what generations I cross or what statistics I look at.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:03 PM
 
929 posts, read 296,796 times
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No question I put Belichick and not Brady as the biggest reason for the Patriots' success. I saw Matt Cassell lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record and a team nobody wanted to face in the playoffs if not for a one-in-a-thousand quirk where 11-5 wasn't good enough to make the playoffs thanks to a quirky early season loss to the Dolphins the day they broke out "the Wildcat".

I saw Steve Young amount to a hill of beans in the USFL and at Tampa Bay; then suddenly be able to compete with Joe Montana as 49ers starter. Not to mention the likes of Sean Kemp and Steve Bono look like All-Pros the moment they started games for SF in a past era.

I've seen Brady look awesome in playoff games, and unbelievably accurate in games against the Steelers and Colts. But I've also seen some average to poor performances, including at San Diego, and some awful ones against Baltimore- which incidentally the Patriots still won each (even as an underdog vs San Diego). Belichick deserves the credit first and foremost. I still put Brady right there as among the six or so greatest, but I pause to say he is the greatest ever- the ring arguments doesn't do a whole lot for me- and I'm not going to waste time to state the obvious reasons.

Some times my thinking parallels that of Montana with Bill Walsh (and Seifert a season later, as much as I don't think Seifert was anything special). But Montana also got killed back in the day (different rules) and had to face some legendary teams and ferocious defenses throughout the 80's in order to to navigate his teams to championships.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 07-10-2017 at 03:41 PM..
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:34 PM
 
4,986 posts, read 11,053,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyCrockett View Post
No question I put Belichick and not Brady as the biggest reason for the Patriots' success. I saw Matt Cassell lead the Patriots to an 11-5 record and a team nobody wanted to face in the playoffs if not for a one-in-a-thousand quirk where 11-5 wasn't good enough to make the playoffs thanks to a quirky early season loss to the Dolphins the day they broke out "the Wildcat". I saw Steve Young amount to a hill of beans in the USFL and at Tampa Bay; then suddenly be able to compete with Joe Montana as 49ers starter. Not to mention the likes of Sean Kemp and Steve Bono look like All-Pros the moment they started games for SF in a past era. I've seen Brady look awesome in playoff games, and unbelievably accurate in games against the Steelers and Colts. But I've also seen some average to poor performances, including at San Diego, and some awful ones against Baltimore- which incidentally the Patriots still won each (even as an underdog vs San Diego). Belichick deserves the credit first and foremost. I still put Brady right there as among the six or so greatest, but I pause to say he is the greatest ever- the ring arguments doesn't do a whole lot for me- and I'm not going to waste time to state the obvious reasons.
Some times my thinking parallels that of Montana with Bill Walsh (and Seifert a season later, as much as I don't think Seifert was anything special). But Montana also got killed back in the day (different rules) and had to face some legendary teams and ferocious defenses throughout the 80's in order to to navigate his teams to championships.
Revisionist history on the 2008 season....

Matt Cassell didn't lead a "team no one wanted to face in the playoffs"

He led a team that was good enough to win 16 regular season games the year before and lost 5 more games that season..

He led a team that played the AFC West that season, a division that did not have a single team with a record over 500

He led a team that played exactly 7 teams that had winning records and lost 4 of those games

That being said, Cassell was good enough to make a Pro Bowl away from Belichick in KC

As for Belichick being the biggest reason for the Pats success...

Belichick's record with Cleveland...1 winning season out of 6, first season with the Pats when Bledsoe was QB 5-11. Record since Brady????

To me Brady has made Belichick more than Belichick made Brady....

It's a question that will only be answered if Bill keeps coaching after Brady retires...

Brady is number 1 all time there really isn't an argument for anyone else after that last SB...
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:44 AM
 
929 posts, read 296,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Revisionist history on the 2008 season....

Matt Cassell didn't lead a "team no one wanted to face in the playoffs"

He led a team that was good enough to win 16 regular season games the year before and lost 5 more games that season..

He led a team that played the AFC West that season, a division that did not have a single team with a record over 500

He led a team that played exactly 7 teams that had winning records and lost 4 of those games

That being said, Cassell was good enough to make a Pro Bowl away from Belichick in KC

As for Belichick being the biggest reason for the Pats success...

Belichick's record with Cleveland...1 winning season out of 6, first season with the Pats when Bledsoe was QB 5-11. Record since Brady????

To me Brady has made Belichick more than Belichick made Brady....

It's a question that will only be answered if Bill keeps coaching after Brady retires...

Brady is number 1 all time there really isn't an argument for anyone else after that last SB...
Not going to break every statement down, but let me just state where I disagree most strongly. Belichick led a rather ordinary Browns roster to an 11-5 record in 1994, as well as a playoff victory. He took over an aging team (days of Bernie Kosar, etc...) and one that was 3-13 a year earlier. He went 6-10, 7-9, and 7-9 his first three seasons.Those Browns teams were nothing special- that 11-5 team in particular took everybody by surprise. However it was no secret the players loathed him. The next season it was total turmoil and the Browns had no choice but to fire him. I thought he was a pretty decent head coach for what his rosters were comprised of. I always thought it would be crazy for another team not to give him another opportunity and a fresh start.

The Patriots blasted the Dolphins in Miami by 20 points late in the 2008 season. No way wasn't New England the better team, but one of those oft-forgotten tie breakers is what did the Patriots in, and of all seasons, a year in which they went 11-5. The AFC was top heavy that season- including the eventual SB champion Steelers, who won at Foxboro a week after that win at Miami. Steelers were better for sure. Other teams certainly likely better, such as Indy and SD who had beaten the Patriots in the firts half of the season.

But the Patriots could certainly play with most anyone and at least would have been a tough out in the playoffs. Cassell had one season two years later when he was with KC, that was phenomenal. Other than that, none of his seasons even come close to stacking up with 2008.

Not hating on Brady, but I just first and foremost think Belichick is in a class by himself. I've seen the Patriots win many playoff games where Brady was at best, average. Doesn't mean Brady still isn't the best, but I don't tend to think for a second you could throw him on a team with average coaches, average players- and still just assume that he would be discussed as the best ever. Perhaps, perhaps not.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 07-10-2017 at 06:51 AM..
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Old 07-09-2017, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Two Rivers, Wisconsin
11,723 posts, read 11,550,474 times
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I'm going to put this out here, for info not because I believe Rodgers belongs in a top 5 list now but he is going to be high up when he quits playing. He's 33, turns 34 in December and I think he'll be playing until 40 if his health holds out.

He may end up like Peyton, great regular season, but not winning come playoff time, which is how many judge QBs. He will have something other QBs don't, his TD to INT ratio will be the best of all time and he'll be at the top of the list for overall % probably.

He'll reach 300 TDs this year, with well under 100 INTs, something the rest of the great QBs haven't done.
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Old 07-09-2017, 05:38 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
19,986 posts, read 18,947,165 times
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1.) Tom Brady
2.) Bart Starr
3.) Joe Montana
4.) Terry Bradshaw
5.) Peyton Manning
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:00 PM
 
4,986 posts, read 11,053,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susancruzs View Post
I'm going to put this out here, for info not because I believe Rodgers belongs in a top 5 list now but he is going to be high up when he quits playing. He's 33, turns 34 in December and I think he'll be playing until 40 if his health holds out.

He may end up like Peyton, great regular season, but not winning come playoff time, which is how many judge QBs. He will have something other QBs don't, his TD to INT ratio will be the best of all time and he'll be at the top of the list for overall % probably.

He'll reach 300 TDs this year, with well under 100 INTs, something the rest of the great QBs haven't done.
I think you are definitely right about the last point, Rodgers will get to 300 TDs with under 100 Int's which is an incredible accomplishment.

Projecting all time ratio's several years down the road is difficult though...

Although Rodgers has only had 2 seasons with double digit interception numbers, that may not hold as he gets older....I kind of expect it will, he is just that accurate, but you never know. Getting to 40 may also be a chore as Rodgers takes many more sacks and hits than say Brady and Rodgers relies on his legs much more than Brady ever has....

Its also worth noting when taking Interception ratios into account, Rodgers has only gone over 600 pass attempts once in his career and that was just last season...

Brady has gone over 600 5 times and Brees 9 times for comparison...

Rodgers has a healthy lead over Brady in TD to Interception rate that would require Rodgers numbers falling off a cliff to get passed...

However overall INT rate as in Interceptions compared to passes thrown its Rodgers 1.5% and Brady 1.8%...thats where the much greater number of passes thrown by Brady shows up

If Rodgers has 2-3 more seasons like his last few I'd put him top 5 all time whether he wins another ring or not
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Old 07-10-2017, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Two Rivers, Wisconsin
11,723 posts, read 11,550,474 times
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Great, sensible post, thank you. I didn't make a list, I agree with some, not so much with others. My thing is wait until players are done with their careers before putting them on the greatest ever list. Key word in the title is this a personal list. There is no right or wrong answer, just peoples thoughts. I smile when people get so intense about their QB having to be on every list!
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