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Old 06-22-2017, 11:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IXCell View Post
True...how many games did Tony Banks start that season?

8 starts, 11 games played.. 5-3 record. 69.3 rating



With Dilfer, 8 starts, 11 games played 7-1 record. Plus, obviously, 4-0 in the playoffs. 76.6 rating
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:21 PM
 
Location: San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLE H View Post
This isn't the easiest question to answer here--which actually is good!

I'm going to go with SB-XXII. And the reason why is because of the distraction of the 1987 NFL players strike. The Redskins finished with an 11-4 season, the Broncos coming in with a 10-4-1 season. Good seasons, but not great seasons. There certainly was a distraction with the New York Giants, winner of SB-XXI. In 1987 they finished with a 6-9 record.

It's to Joe Gibbs credit to have three super bowl wins in a ten year span. What is impressive to me is that they came every four years or so (1982, 1987, 1991) He didn't have the luxury of free agency to sign blue chip players and have a quick super bowl run, he kept on remaking the squad. Three different qb's were involved in the three wins, Gibbs was able to adapt to their strengths. Hopefully some longtime Redskins fans will weigh in here regarding how Gibbs kept on reworking the roster to be consistently in the playoff mix for that ten year run.

Denver on the other hand was a one man band on offense-John Elway. The Broncos had four pro bowlers on defense but on offense he had just journeyman players-no all pros or pro bowlers. Losing Vance Johnson with the lacerated kidney in the Houston playoff game didn't help manners much. To prove my point Denver's running stats were 68 yards on 14 carries with Steve Sewell, Gene Lang, and Sammy Winder. Elway did pad his stats in the second half and threw for 257 yards but was 14 for 38 with 2 passes for nearly 100 yards in the first couple minutes of the game. From then on Elway was somewhat under siege, IIRC he was sacked 6 times. Seems like it was more than that. Heh, I was at that game-I know!

The Redskins had the Broncos number on defense, even though it was nearly all in the second quarter. When the dust had cleared, Doug Williams went 18 for 29 with 340 yards and 4 td's, all in the second quarter-a super bowl record. And don't forget the other super bowl record held by Timmy Smith with 204 yards rushing. By 1989 he was out of the league. And sadly Williams was out of the league the year after that.

But Joe Gibbs was able to rebuild the club and four years later the Redskins won their third super bowl. I think there could have been another super bowl win or two coming from him but he felt a career change was in order.
To realize how much Elway carried the Broncos through the years all one has to do is look at the mediocre numbers the receivers get when they go to other teams. 3 Amigos.
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD/Washington DC
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Seasons in serious contention IMO:

1970, SB 5: Colts (11-2-1) vs Cowboys (10-4) - the Colts had the best record in the AFC, but the AFC was very weak in the first season after the AFL-NFL merger, with only 5 teams finishing with winning records and only 2 teams with 10 or more wins. Meanwhile in the NFC, the Cowboys finished with tied for the 3rd best record in the conference, and arguably were no better than 4th best in the NFC, behind Minnesota (12-2, and almost definitely the best team in the NFL in the regular season that year by a fairly significant margin), San Francisco (10-3-1), and Detroit (10-4, who outscored opponents by 145 points compared to Dallas' 78 points).

1987, SB 22: Redskins (11-4/8-4) vs Broncos (10-4-1/8-3-1) - the Redskins didn't have a particularly strong team in 1987 (in fact, they fell from a 12-4 record in 1986), but benefited from their strike team going 3-0. They were clearly worse than both the 49ers and Saints, and didn't have to face either team in the playoffs. (Minnesota beat both teams.) The Broncos finished with the best "regulars" and overall record in the AFC, but this was during the period when the AFC was significantly inferior to the NFC and had no real dominant teams.

2006, SB 41: Colts (12-4) vs Bears (13-3) - even though the Colts finished 12-4, they probably were no better than the 4th best team in the AFC in the regular season, behind the Chargers (14-2), Ravens (13-3), and Patriots (12-4); they outscored their opponents by only 67 points during the season (the other 3 aforementioned teams each outscored their opponents by at least 148 points). The Bears meanwhile took advantage of a historically bad NFC, which had only 5 teams with winning records and only one team, the Bears themselves, with more than 10 wins. The Bears also had weaker division foes than any other NFC division champion, with the other 3 NFC North teams combining for a 17-31 record.

2008, SB 43: Steelers (12-4) vs Cardinals (9-7) - this has mostly to do with the Cardinals, but the Steelers contributed to some degree; despite having a legitimately solid team by Super Bowl team standards, they did take advantage of playing in division that had two 4 win teams (Bengals 4-11-1, Browns 4-12). The Cardinals are arguably the worst team to appear in a Super Bowl; not only did they go only 9-7 and outscore their opponents by only 1 point on the season, the rest of the NFC West went a putrid 13-35 on the season.

2012, SB 47: Ravens (10-6) vs 49ers (11-4-1) - the 2012 Ravens are one of the worst (and Broncos fans would probably say luckiest) Super Bowl winning teams of all-time; the were probably no better than 5th best team in the AFC, and the Patriots and Broncos were both much better teams in the regular season. The 49ers were a more representative Super Bowl participant, but still may not have been the best team in their own division (Seahawks) and had the fortune of seeing the Seahawks get knocked off in the divisional round before they could play the 49ers.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIP72 View Post
Seasons in serious contention IMO:

1970, SB 5: Colts (11-2-1) vs Cowboys (10-4) - the Colts had the best record in the AFC, but the AFC was very weak in the first season after the AFL-NFL merger, with only 5 teams finishing with winning records and only 2 teams with 10 or more wins. Meanwhile in the NFC, the Cowboys finished with tied for the 3rd best record in the conference, and arguably were no better than 4th best in the NFC, behind Minnesota (12-2, and almost definitely the best team in the NFL in the regular season that year by a fairly significant margin), San Francisco (10-3-1), and Detroit (10-4, who outscored opponents by 145 points compared to Dallas' 78 points).

1987, SB 22: Redskins (11-4/8-4) vs Broncos (10-4-1/8-3-1) - the Redskins didn't have a particularly strong team in 1987 (in fact, they fell from a 12-4 record in 1986), but benefited from their strike team going 3-0. They were clearly worse than both the 49ers and Saints, and didn't have to face either team in the playoffs. (Minnesota beat both teams.) The Broncos finished with the best "regulars" and overall record in the AFC, but this was during the period when the AFC was significantly inferior to the NFC and had no real dominant teams.

2006, SB 41: Colts (12-4) vs Bears (13-3) - even though the Colts finished 12-4, they probably were no better than the 4th best team in the AFC in the regular season, behind the Chargers (14-2), Ravens (13-3), and Patriots (12-4); they outscored their opponents by only 67 points during the season (the other 3 aforementioned teams each outscored their opponents by at least 148 points). The Bears meanwhile took advantage of a historically bad NFC, which had only 5 teams with winning records and only one team, the Bears themselves, with more than 10 wins. The Bears also had weaker division foes than any other NFC division champion, with the other 3 NFC North teams combining for a 17-31 record.

2008, SB 43: Steelers (12-4) vs Cardinals (9-7) - this has mostly to do with the Cardinals, but the Steelers contributed to some degree; despite having a legitimately solid team by Super Bowl team standards, they did take advantage of playing in division that had two 4 win teams (Bengals 4-11-1, Browns 4-12). The Cardinals are arguably the worst team to appear in a Super Bowl; not only did they go only 9-7 and outscore their opponents by only 1 point on the season, the rest of the NFC West went a putrid 13-35 on the season.

2012, SB 47: Ravens (10-6) vs 49ers (11-4-1) - the 2012 Ravens are one of the worst (and Broncos fans would probably say luckiest) Super Bowl winning teams of all-time; the were probably no better than 5th best team in the AFC, and the Patriots and Broncos were both much better teams in the regular season. The 49ers were a more representative Super Bowl participant, but still may not have been the best team in their own division (Seahawks) and had the fortune of seeing the Seahawks get knocked off in the divisional round before they could play the 49ers.
Good list, as much as I can't attest to 1970. Giants-Pats still was my choice in 2011, but can't argue against the other. The 2008 Cardinals were dreadful, but lightning struck a bottle in the playoffs, not to mention the top 2 seeds in the NFC were frauds. The Giants were outstanding much of that season, but were mortal at the end thanks to the Plaxico Burress fiasco. Carolina with an erratic Jake Delhomme on the downswing was hard to explain how they managed the lofty record they did- and sure enough, were embarrassed at home in the divisional round by Arizona. The Ravens were so-so in the regular season and were fortunate to beat Denver, but did get players healthy in time and I think were better in time for the playoffs than what they demonstrated in the regular season. And I do recall that year's 49er team getting humiliated on SNF by Seattle late that same season in a game that mattered for SF. People forget too how bad defensively the 2006 Colts were without Bob Sanders. Most didn't think a returning safety would alleviate much with the porous run D, but it did. Still the 06 Colts are oft forgotten as a very improbable Super Bowl champ, albeit they got a pretty easy SB match-up vs Chicago.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIP72 View Post
1987, SB 22: Redskins (11-4/8-4) vs Broncos (10-4-1/8-3-1) - the Redskins didn't have a particularly strong team in 1987 (in fact, they fell from a 12-4 record in 1986), but benefited from their strike team going 3-0. They were clearly worse than both the 49ers and Saints, and didn't have to face either team in the playoffs. (Minnesota beat both teams.) The Broncos finished with the best "regulars" and overall record in the AFC, but this was during the period when the AFC was significantly inferior to the NFC and had no real dominant teams.

I still have something of a problem with this one being included.. The Redskins lost 4 games.. By a total of 11 points. And were in the middle of a QB controversy the whole season, between Jay Schroeder and Doug Williams.



Now, admittedly, the Redskins didn't really beat any great teams. We've discussed, they beat the Bears and the Vikings and those were the only two teams they played that had winning records.



I don't know.. Perhaps because I'm a Redskins fan I'm biased here. We can at least agree that they didn't PLAY like the weakest NFC team in the 2nd quarter of the Super Bowl.
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Old 08-24-2017, 10:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
I still have something of a problem with this one being included.. The Redskins lost 4 games.. By a total of 11 points. And were in the middle of a QB controversy the whole season, between Jay Schroeder and Doug Williams.



Now, admittedly, the Redskins didn't really beat any great teams. We've discussed, they beat the Bears and the Vikings and those were the only two teams they played that had winning records.



I don't know.. Perhaps because I'm a Redskins fan I'm biased here. We can at least agree that they didn't PLAY like the weakest NFC team in the 2nd quarter of the Super Bowl.
I think the Redskins, while a very good franchise of course in the Gibbs era, were a bit off the radar that season in an era where normally the NFC champ year-to-year not only won, but dominated the competition. Doug Williams lost the only two games he started during the regular season. He was out of the NFL for the prior 4-1/2 years and with Tampa Bay and in the USFL, his career was so-so. They didn't play the 49ers, who by the end of that regular season were once again a machine, strike or no strike using replacement players earlier for three games. And even with Montana getting hurt, SF's loss in the divisional round vs what had been a very average Minnesota team, still stand's as the NFL's greatest playoff upset (in my estimation). Of course that isn't the Redskins' fault, but let's face it: not having to play at the Niners in the NFC title game was a huge break. Wasn't there some controversy at the end of the NFC title game as well at the end of the game with Vikings inside the five yard line, attempting to score the game tying TD at the end? Don't recall the details.
The bottom line is that Washington put on an insane clinic in the second quarter alone, unmatched in Super Bowl history to this day. Doug Williams and Tim Smith weren't exactly names you'd expect to be mentioned in Super Bowl lore. But the storied o-line was still great, and there were certainly other very good players too. A lot of this game being mentioned on the list has much more to do with a mediocre Denver roster besides Elway when the AFC was a joke. I think Denver might have even been favored in the game, but this game more than any other I think firmly entrenched in most people's minds the inferiority of the AFC compared to the NFC afterwards. 1987 was a weird season and perhaps at the end the replacement games had something to do with it. But the way the NFC playoffs played out was more of something we see modern day, and not in that era when usually the most dominant team went on to win it all and nearly .500 type teams were one-and-done.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyCrockett View Post
I think the Redskins, while a very good franchise of course in the Gibbs era, were a bit off the radar that season in an era where normally the NFC champ year-to-year not only won, but dominated the competition. Doug Williams lost the only two games he started during the regular season. He was out of the NFL for the prior 4-1/2 years and with Tampa Bay and in the USFL, his career was so-so. They didn't play the 49ers, who by the end of that regular season were once again a machine, strike or no strike using replacement players earlier for three games. And even with Montana getting hurt, SF's loss in the divisional round vs what had been a very average Minnesota team, still stand's as the NFL's greatest playoff upset (in my estimation). Of course that isn't the Redskins' fault, but let's face it: not having to play at the Niners in the NFC title game was a huge break. Wasn't there some controversy at the end of the NFC title game as well at the end of the game with Vikings inside the five yard line, attempting to score the game tying TD at the end? Don't recall the details.
If I recall.. Darrell Green knocked away a 4th and Goal pass in the endzone to seal it. the only 'controversy' would have been whether it was PI or not.. And Green didn't get many PI penalties in his career.

Quote:
The bottom line is that Washington put on an insane clinic in the second quarter alone, unmatched in Super Bowl history to this day. Doug Williams and Tim Smith weren't exactly names you'd expect to be mentioned in Super Bowl lore. But the storied o-line was still great, and there were certainly other very good players too. A lot of this game being mentioned on the list has much more to do with a mediocre Denver roster besides Elway when the AFC was a joke. I think Denver might have even been favored in the game, but this game more than any other I think firmly entrenched in most people's minds the inferiority of the AFC compared to the NFC afterwards. 1987 was a weird season and perhaps at the end the replacement games had something to do with it. But the way the NFC playoffs played out was more of something we see modern day, and not in that era when usually the most dominant team went on to win it all and nearly .500 type teams were one-and-done.

Timmy Smith, I'll agree with you on.. Look at what he did before and after. He gained more yardage on the prison track than he did in the NFL.

Doug Williams.. He was an old man by this time, but.. You can't take away that he was a VERY good QB. Him being out of the NFL did not have much to do with his talent. Remember that he took the Bucs to the championship game. He was NOT a very good QB in '87, mainly due to age.. But he was still serviceable.

but you look at the rest of the roster from the Redskins.. as you mentioned, the Hogs were basically still intact.. Perhaps the best WRs in football in Monk, Sanders and Clark. Typical Joe Gibbs TEs in Didier, Orrr and Warren. The defense is VERY underrated.. Remember you still had a very good Dexter Manley (Who was likely coked up every game, but)... Charles Mann and Dave Butz.. Monte Coleman and Neil Olkewicz, Todd Bowles and Barry Wilburn had excellent seasons. Special teams was nothing special, but replacing Jess Atkinson with Ali Haji-Sheikh (Atkinson was injured) was a good move.. I'm trying to remember if this was the year they signed Max Zendejas.. No, that was the '86 season.. What a pile of suck he was.. They learned their lesson after that. I still remember Sonny Jurgensen and Sam Huff in the radio booth when the Packers played the Redskins in '88 and Zendejas was with the Packers.. He had a chance to tie the game with 11 seconds left and shanked an easy FG.
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
8 starts, 11 games played.. 5-3 record. 69.3 rating



With Dilfer, 8 starts, 11 games played 7-1 record. Plus, obviously, 4-0 in the playoffs. 76.6 rating
People keep trying to compare that Ravens Defense to Chicago's 1985 defense. The Ravens were a better defense on almost every statistic. The difference is the Bears had a better offense than the Ravens, so their run was beyond a one year time frame.

If you just look at one year at a time the Ravens were better as far as defense is concerned. In my opinion Ray Lewis should not have been awarded MVP, it should have been the field goal kicker. I can't even remember his name, but the Ravens have an equally good one now in Tucker. This year, they may have a defense that can compare to that 2000 season. Watch out!
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cruzincat View Post
People keep trying to compare that Ravens Defense to Chicago's 1985 defense. The Ravens were a better defense on almost every statistic. The difference is the Bears had a better offense than the Ravens, so their run was beyond a one year time frame.

If you just look at one year at a time the Ravens were better as far as defense is concerned. In my opinion Ray Lewis should not have been awarded MVP, it should have been the field goal kicker. I can't even remember his name, but the Ravens have an equally good one now in Tucker. This year, they may have a defense that can compare to that 2000 season. Watch out!
Best two SB winning defenses ever (at least in the Super Bowl era) were the 2000 Ravens and 85 Bears (a case could also be made for the 76 Steelers, who didn't even reach the S.B). 2002 Tampa Bay was awesome as well, at least down the stretch. I know the Ravens D became just an unbelievable force as the season wore on, but better than 85 Chicago? Wow- that is a bold statement. I have no problem making the Bears 1a and the Ravens 1b. My eyes tell me more, especially when it comes to teams from different eras, than any statistics could. Not to mention, era needs to be considered- in 1985, offenses were considered to have a much more distinct advantage given the relatively new passing rules then. On that same note, Dan Marino did shred the Bears defense on that one Monday night- the only flub during that memorable season by the Bears. But on a negative note with the Ravens, it was in fact Tennessee and not Baltimore who ranked #1 in defense that 2000 season. There are cases to be made for each, but I have a hard time delegating the Bears for anything other than #1. Staying on topic, despite the presence of Dilfer, I'd only consider Giants-Ravens among the worst duo of teams to meet in a Super Bowl due to the Giants somehow going 12-4 with an obviously mediocre level of talent and getting blown out at home by the defending champion St Louis Rams with Kurt Warner, who was mired with injuries. It was very flukish. I recall the infamous Terry Bradshaw comment about the Giants, if they made it to the SB, would be the worst SB representative ever, Wellington Mara- as he accepted the NFC championship trophy, declared in front of Bradshaw, that the Giants would go ahead and try to be the worst team ever to win the Super Bowl.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Hiding from Antifa?
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I will add to my BOLD statement that during the 85 season, the Bears allowed 198 points versus the 165 points allowed by the Ravens in 2000. I am sure there are other stats that can be looked at as well, but in my humble opinion, points allowed is a major one.

Obviously the Bears had to have a better offense, but that is not what we are talking about is it?

I would re characterize what you said about Dilfer, in that because of Dilfer's presence, the Ravens/Giants SB was possibly one of the worst duos. Remember, they let him go during the offseason. Probably the most boneheaded move management could have made. It took them a long time to get a decent QB after that, because who would want to play for a team that would let a QB go after winning the SB? They only lucked into Flacco, by signing him as third string and losing the first and second string QBs to injury.

Last edited by Cruzincat; 09-07-2017 at 01:15 PM..
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