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Old 10-07-2017, 04:27 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 478,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Illusive Man View Post
They really lucked out with Kraft.
Agreed. The Patriots ownership prior to Kraft was bad between Billy Sullivan, Victor (I liked the product so much I bought the company) Kiam, and James Orthwein (who was the one who almost relocated the team to St. Louis). Kraft has done a lot to improve the team's circumstances (settling the team's finances and location, building a new state of the art stadium and complex) and done good things for the league in general (especially in brokering settlement of the 2011 labor dispute, which has helped ensure the league's success this decade).

And Kraft was fortunate to have Bill Belichick at his most capable, who in turn was very lucky to have Tom Brady develop into the quality QB he did. It will be interesting to see how the team fares when Brady finally loses effectiveness, as he's been the difference maker. Belichick wasn't especially successful in prior head coaching stints, so that could be an issue.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Agreed. The Patriots ownership prior to Kraft was bad between Billy Sullivan, Victor (I liked the product so much I bought the company) Kiam, and James Orthwein (who was the one who almost relocated the team to St. Louis). Kraft has done a lot to improve the team's circumstances (settling the team's finances and location, building a new state of the art stadium and complex) and done good things for the league in general (especially in brokering settlement of the 2011 labor dispute, which has helped ensure the league's success this decade).

And Kraft was fortunate to have Bill Belichick at his most capable, who in turn was very lucky to have Tom Brady develop into the quality QB he did. It will be interesting to see how the team fares when Brady finally loses effectiveness, as he's been the difference maker. Belichick wasn't especially successful in prior head coaching stints, so that could be an issue.
Belichick turned Cleveland around before Browns players detested him so much, he was let go. We all know Belichick at this point is a great head coach, even if some times he tries to hard to be the smartest guy in the room (letting the clock elapse at the end of the game vs Seattle just before Wilson threw the INT, etc...). Tom Brady has had more the bad playoff performances than the lamestream media wishes to admit, and in fact was no where close to the MVP of the win vs Seattle. And most of all, 11-5 with Matt Cassell tells me all I need to know. Doesn't mean Brady isn't a great QB- but best ever- that is very debatable if someone wants to engage in a substantive debate beyond the shallow "number of rings" argument.
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:35 AM
 
929 posts, read 296,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBtwinz View Post
What about all those drunken brawls at the stadium that led us to lose MNF?

At 57 years old and a Patriots fan since I was a little boy I really hope this generation of Pat's fans really truly realize how lucky we have been having such a great run these last 10 plus years.

We had one heck of a dry spell and that 85 run to the Super Bowl was a heart break after getting through the playoffs and have the bad luck of playing against those unbeatable Bears!
Crazy what winning can do. Now Foxboro is one of the quietest stadiums in the league. When the blue collar types could afford games and willing to show up when the team wasn't on top, the Sullivan/Schaeffer Stadium could be loud and often times, rowdy. Definitely wasn't a safe place to attend a game in the 70's and early 80's. hence no MNF home games for many years. This whole notion though that Patriots fans are bandwagoners is silly. I've lived many places and it isn't worse than any pro or college fan base I've come across in many regions I've lived. I'm not a Pats fan, yet I knew plenty of loyalists who stuck by them during all the ownership turmoil in the early 80's and relocation talk in the early 90's. And as a franchise, the Patriots have been more successful before Brady/Belichick and for that matter, Parcells/Bledsoe. than most assume. Certainly not great- but geez, some people act as though they were unsuccessful to the depths the current Browns have been for 15+ years.
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:01 AM
 
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One of the things that the Patriot franchise separates themselves from other teams was the amount of places they played until they could find themselves a permanent home.

Nickerson Field-1960-1962
Fenway Park- 1963-1968
Alumni Stadium- 1969
Harvard Stadium- 1970
Shaffer Stadium- 1971-2001
Gillette Stadium 2002 to present

In 2001 NFL Films did a great one hour special on two stadiums that were being torn down-Denver's Mile High Stadium and Shaffer Stadium in Foxboro. The New England portion of the story had some interesting commentary from guys like Randy Vataha and Upton Bell, there are a couple other people interviewed, the names escape me.

Good point by Sonny regarding the lack of Monday Night Football games. IIRC there were NO MNF games at Shaffer Stadium from 1982 to 1995, it may go back further. The Pats did play on Monday Night but not in their own stadium.
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:12 PM
 
3,722 posts, read 3,880,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLE H View Post
One of the things that the Patriot franchise separates themselves from other teams was the amount of places they played until they could find themselves a permanent home.

Nickerson Field-1960-1962
Fenway Park- 1963-1968
Alumni Stadium- 1969
Harvard Stadium- 1970
Shaffer Stadium- 1971-2001
Gillette Stadium 2002 to present

In 2001 NFL Films did a great one hour special on two stadiums that were being torn down-Denver's Mile High Stadium and Shaffer Stadium in Foxboro. The New England portion of the story had some interesting commentary from guys like Randy Vataha and Upton Bell, there are a couple other people interviewed, the names escape me.

Good point by Sonny regarding the lack of Monday Night Football games. IIRC there were NO MNF games at Shaffer Stadium from 1982 to 1995, it may go back further. The Pats did play on Monday Night but not in their own stadium.
The town of Foxborough was the reason for the ban - after the game in 1981 vs. Dallas. Tons of brawls. Police officers were injured. A large number of people had to be put in protective custody for being too drunk. The town went to the NFL and asked them to not schedule any MNF home games. 1995 against Buffalo was the return of MNF home games for the Patriots.
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Old 10-07-2017, 04:26 PM
 
1,176 posts, read 478,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyCrockett View Post
Belichick turned Cleveland around before Browns players detested him so much, he was let go. We all know Belichick at this point is a great head coach, even if some times he tries to hard to be the smartest guy in the room (letting the clock elapse at the end of the game vs Seattle just before Wilson threw the INT, etc...). Tom Brady has had more the bad playoff performances than the lamestream media wishes to admit, and in fact was no where close to the MVP of the win vs Seattle. And most of all, 11-5 with Matt Cassell tells me all I need to know. Doesn't mean Brady isn't a great QB- but best ever- that is very debatable if someone wants to engage in a substantive debate beyond the shallow "number of rings" argument.
Oh no question Belichick has a HoF coaching resume. A 240-117 W-L record thus far and five SB titles assure it and then some. But again, I'll be interested to see how well he does after Brady loses effectiveness. Even as great a coach as Paul Brown could only do so much with the Bengals.

And I'm not one to say Brady is the QB GOAT, though he's in my top six with (in no particular order) Sammy Baugh, John Unitas, Otto Graham, Joe Montana, and Peyton Manning. Not sure how I'd rank them, actually.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:46 AM
 
13,912 posts, read 7,405,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLE H View Post
Nickerson Field-1960-1962
Fenway Park- 1963-1968
Alumni Stadium- 1969
Harvard Stadium- 1970
Shaffer Stadium- 1971-2001
Gillette Stadium 2002 to present
I went to a few Fenway games when I was really young.

I went to Schaefer Stadium games where there were only 20,000 people in those bleacher seats and the games were blacked out. You could buy tickets in the parking lot for 50 cents on the dollar. The worst was a December Redskins game in 1990. A 1 win team. Rookie Tom Hodson was QB after they benched Marc Wilson for the year. 33F and raining. They were down 19-0 at halftime. At the 2nd half kickoff, there might have been 5,000 people left in the stands.

I played a game there when I was in high school.
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:15 AM
 
13,912 posts, read 7,405,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Oh no question Belichick has a HoF coaching resume. A 240-117 W-L record thus far and five SB titles assure it and then some. But again, I'll be interested to see how well he does after Brady loses effectiveness. Even as great a coach as Paul Brown could only do so much with the Bengals.

And I'm not one to say Brady is the QB GOAT, though he's in my top six with (in no particular order) Sammy Baugh, John Unitas, Otto Graham, Joe Montana, and Peyton Manning. Not sure how I'd rank them, actually.
Belichick is 65. Joe Gibbs coached until age 67. Pete Carroll is 66 now. What makes you think Belichick will keep coaching after Tom Brady retires? I think they'll both retire the same year and Belichick will move to a Vice President job with the Patriots.

Brady won in years where he had weak receivers and no running game. Montana and Manning always had elite skill players on their teams. There's no point in comparing modern era quarterbacks to the old ones. It's a different game and a totally different level of athleticism, size, speed, and strength. The old NFL teams probably couldn't beat Alabama let alone a modern NFL team.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:02 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 478,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
Belichick is 65. Joe Gibbs coached until age 67. Pete Carroll is 66 now. What makes you think Belichick will keep coaching after Tom Brady retires? I think they'll both retire the same year and Belichick will move to a Vice President job with the Patriots.

Brady won in years where he had weak receivers and no running game. Montana and Manning always had elite skill players on their teams. There's no point in comparing modern era quarterbacks to the old ones. It's a different game and a totally different level of athleticism, size, speed, and strength. The old NFL teams probably couldn't beat Alabama let alone a modern NFL team.
Who knows when Belichick will retire? He might indeed do so when Brady does, or he might coach until age 72 like Marv Levy and George Halas did. There's no way to know as of now.

In the years Brady won titles, he had at least a strong running game or a strong receiver:

2001: Troy Brown was 4th in catches and 9th in receiving yards. Antowain Smith was 12th in rushing yards.
2002: Troy Brown was 6th in catches. Antowain Smith was 19th in rushing yards (982 yards).
2004: Corey Dillon was 3rd in rushing yards.
2014: Julian Edelman and Brandon LaFell were 6th and 14th in catches and 13th and 14th in receiving yards. And Rob Gronkowski had one of his best seasons.
2016: Julian Edelman was 4th in catches and 8th in receiving yards and LeGarrette Blount was 8th in rushing yards.

The least amount of support Brady had in these seasons arguably occurred in 2002, and even here Brown was very good (not "weak" as I understand it), plus I don't think Smith's 982 yards constituted "no running game."

And I prefer to think in terms of how the QBs did relative to their competition at the time in thinking about candidates for GOAT. It's a similar argument to that one might use to say Lou Gehrig was the best 1B of all time or Mike Schmidt was the best 3B ever. Otherwise, you could argue that Buster Posey was the GOAT catcher instead of someone like Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, or Mickey Cochrane, and I'm not buying that.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:41 PM
 
929 posts, read 296,796 times
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Again, I'm more a believer in Belichick than Brady as the reason for the Patriots' success. But to be fair to Brady, I recall the two seasons prior to getting Moss and Welker, he didn't have diddly to throw to. Yet the Patriots were still successful- fell short of the Super Bowl each time, but a lot of wouldas-couldas as well. They handed a game to Denver at Mile High in the divisional round thanks to a dropped punt return and a few other unforced miscues and a terrible P.I call. Then the next season had a 21-3 lead at Indy in the AFC Title game.
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