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View Poll Results: 2018 NFL Hall Of Fame (HOF) Voting Poll of City-Data football fans
Isaac Bruce 15 26.79%
Tony Boselli 8 14.29%
Brian Dawkins 8 14.29%
Alan Faneca 4 7.14%
Steve Hutchinson 3 5.36%
Edgerrin James 6 10.71%
Joe Jacoby 10 17.86%
Ty Law 13 23.21%
Ray Lewis 28 50.00%
John Lynch 14 25.00%
Kevin Mawae 4 7.14%
Randy Moss 34 60.71%
Terrell Owens 27 48.21%
Brian Urlacher 21 37.50%
Everson Walls 7 12.50%
Robert Brazile (veteran finalist) 5 8.93%
Jerry Kramer (veteran finalist) 11 19.64%
Bobby Beathard (administration) 7 12.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-04-2018, 11:39 AM
 
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I chose folks Iíd vote for given worth and seniority circumstances. Unlike previous years, this will be a tough year to predict for regular candidates outside of Ray Lewis, who is a lock. I think the Contributor and two Seniors will be elected. Also am guessing Joe Jacoby (last eligible year), Kevin Mawae, Brian Dawkins, and Ty Law get the nod. But I could be wrong: Terrell Owens, Alan Faneca, or John Lynch could replace one of these folks.
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
So they say....but how then does one explain TO not getting in with the 2nd most receiving yards in NFL history not to mention playing lights out in a Super Bowl only weeks after having a screw put in his ankle....
There are likely a couple issues with TO’s candidacy causing his delay:

-he has a surprisingly high percentage of dropped passes compared to other WRs.

-his distracting, divisive behavior on field and in the clubhouse is considered an on-field issue.

It won’t keep him out forever, though. He may get in as early as this time around.

And the latter issue is what will likely delay Randy Moss a good bit. My guess is some voters will remember his quitting on the Raiders and not always trying his best and make him wait a bit for it. He’d probably be a first ballot guy otherwise.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:03 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 479,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Ah, Patriots. Good one. Wilfork, adam vinatieri, Moss, Gronk, Brady, maybe Welker and/or Edleman. That list will triple in size within the next decade.
I think Moss, Brady, Gronkowski, Law, Richard Seymour, Vinatieri, Bill Belichick, and Robert Kraft will get in the HoF sooner or later. Possibly Wilfork and Logan Mankins too. Rent-a-player Darrelle Revis is also a lock, and Junior Seau is already in.

Vinatieri doesnít really belong in because his FG percentage is nothing special adjusted to era, definitely not ahead of Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:11 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 479,141 times
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Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Not a single vote for Edgerrin James yet? His numbers are pretty darn good for a RB.
Agreed. He’ll get in eventually. The cutoff point for full career RBs in or out for the last several decades seems to be 12,000 rushing yards, and he has gone past that. So have Frank Gore and Adrian Peterson. I expect they’ll be elected sooner or later.
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:33 AM
 
929 posts, read 296,796 times
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Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Vinatieri doesnít really belong in because his FG percentage is nothing special adjusted to era, definitely not ahead of Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson.
Yeah, I never got the whole Vinatieri thing. Didn't he have a stretch in his early years with Indy where he wasn't too reliable? He made a helluva clutch kick in the snow fest vs the Raiders in the playoffs. I don't care all that much though about the fgs at the end of 2 Super Bowls. I look at those more as being given the opportunity to make two kicks of less than 50 yards, something not afforded any other kicker in history in those sort of spots. Norwood missed one and O'Brien made a short one for the Colts to beat Dallas. That's the extent of it. Nobody should assume that there wouldn't be a plethora of kickers, who wouldn't make those same kicks in the Super Bowls that Vinatieri did.
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:00 PM
 
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A little input on the veteran picks.

There are times when two veterans get in to the HOF instead of one, the veterans represented here are Robert Brazile and Jerry Kramer.

It's unfortunate that Brazile hasn't gotten more consideration over the years. He came out of Jackson State as a #1 pick. He, like Randy Gradishar of the Denver Broncos got a little flak from the media for only playing ten years in the league (Brazile being from 1975 to 1984.) Out of the ten years he played he was 1st team all pro five times and 2nd team all pro once. And was a seven time pro bowler. He played in the same era and in the same division of three great linebackers from the Pittsburgh Steelers-Jack Ham, Jack Lambert, and Andy Russell. Houston gave Pittsburgh a hell of a go in the late 1970's but didn't get to the SB. Brazile's nickname was "Dr. Doom." He is more than worthy to get into Canton.

As is Jerry Kramer. Sometimes I wonder if the selection committee figures that there are enough players from one team from one decade and from one side of the ball that their word is final. With Green Bay I could see where they come up with that stance, not that I agree with it though, because I don't. Jim Ringo, Forrest Gregg, Bart Starr, Jim Taylor, and Paul Hornung are all in Canton. In the meanwhile Jerry Kramer was named by the NFL pro writers back in 1970 as one of the players regarding the NFL greatest players in the 50 year anniversary of the history of the league (1919-1969.) And that he is the only player not to ne named in the HOF.

That is not something I would want to be known as. And over the years for him to be shut out all this time, well, I don't get it. He was a 5 time 1st team all pro and a 1 time 2nd team all pro.

Two people have gotten in before, recently that would be;

2013-Curley Culp, Dave Robinson
2011-Chris Hanburger, Les Richter
2010-Dick Lebeau, Floyd Little

IMO it is going to be a tall order picking out this years class. I'll make up my mind on the recent retirees later.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 01-05-2018 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:32 AM
 
1,177 posts, read 479,141 times
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Originally Posted by SonnyCrockett View Post
Yeah, I never got the whole Vinatieri thing. Didn't he have a stretch in his early years with Indy where he wasn't too reliable? He made a helluva clutch kick in the snow fest vs the Raiders in the playoffs. I don't care all that much though about the fgs at the end of 2 Super Bowls. I look at those more as being given the opportunity to make two kicks of less than 50 yards, something not afforded any other kicker in history in those sort of spots. Norwood missed one and O'Brien made a short one for the Colts to beat Dallas. That's the extent of it. Nobody should assume that there wouldn't be a plethora of kickers, who wouldn't make those same kicks in the Super Bowls that Vinatieri did.
Yes, that kick he made in the snow against the Raiders was a big deal. So was Don Larsen’s perfect game, but one great accomplishment doesn’t necessarily make you Hall-worthy. And his kicking in Super Bowls is a mixed bag; he did kick the winning FGs in Super Bowls 36 and 37, but he also missed two in the latter game and had he made either the second of these wouldn’t have been necessary. And you’re right that most good kickers would have accomplished what he did if given the chance. Those game winning FGs constitute a powerful narrative-based HoF argument, something I’ve never been a fan of.

He’s also closing in on the all time scoring title, which I guess counts for something (previous holders of that mark are in).

I probably wouldn’t mind as as much if Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson were in, but I don’t think that’s going to happen. It’s especially unfortunate in Lowery’s case, as one can make the argument that he’s the best kicker adjusted for era in NFL history. See this link:

The Greatest Field Goal Kickers Of All Time II, Part III: Career Rankings
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Yes, that kick he made in the snow against the Raiders was a big deal. So was Don Larsenís perfect game, but one great accomplishment doesnít necessarily make you Hall-worthy. And his kicking in Super Bowls is a mixed bag; he did kick the winning FGs in Super Bowls 36 and 37, but he also missed two in the latter game and had he made either the second of these wouldnít have been necessary. And youíre right that most good kickers would have accomplished what he did if given the chance. Those game winning FGs constitute a powerful narrative-based HoF argument, something Iíve never been a fan of.

Heís also closing in on the all time scoring title, which I guess counts for something (previous holders of that mark are in).

I probably wouldnít mind as as much if Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson were in, but I donít think thatís going to happen. Itís especially unfortunate in Loweryís case, as one can make the argument that heís the best kicker adjusted for era in NFL history. See this link:

The Greatest Field Goal Kickers Of All Time II, Part III: Career Rankings
Like it or not Vinatieri will get in to the HOF and it will likely be before Nick Lowery even if Adam plays another 2-3 seasons.

The "era adjusted" nonsense is ONE man's "advanced metric" and isn't going to come in to play during the discussion of HOFers. Vinatieri has a higher FG made % than Lowery....period

He also has more clutch kicks including 2 SB game winners. Stating Lowery was "better" because he made more kicks than "expected" for his era based on what other kickers of the same era were doing is nonsense. He also gives weight to average distance of attempt which favors teams with poor offenses yet dismisses Vinatieri's game winners because other kickers didn't have the same opportunity?

Maybe if Vinatieri had played his career on bad teams the way Lowery did his average distance for attempt would be longer. Not his fault that Brady and Manning/Luck get their teams into the Red Zone more often with failed end zone attempts resulting in more chip shots.

All that matters is what the HOF voters think and I know one for sure, Peter King, has stated repeatedly Vinatieri will be getting in when his time comes

"Iím not one to be a fanboy for Hall of Fame players before their time, but I cannot fathom a way Vinatieri will not make it into Canton the first time heís eligible."
https://www.stampedeblue.com/2016/11...t-ballot-colts

Stuart's methodology is flawed and HOF voters will not be looking at his tables when they choose Vinatieri to get a gold jacket.
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:38 AM
 
15,403 posts, read 5,217,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Yes, that kick he made in the snow against the Raiders was a big deal. So was Don Larsenís perfect game, but one great accomplishment doesnít necessarily make you Hall-worthy. And his kicking in Super Bowls is a mixed bag; he did kick the winning FGs in Super Bowls 36 and 37, but he also missed two in the latter game and had he made either the second of these wouldnít have been necessary. And youíre right that most good kickers would have accomplished what he did if given the chance. Those game winning FGs constitute a powerful narrative-based HoF argument, something Iíve never been a fan of.

Heís also closing in on the all time scoring title, which I guess counts for something (previous holders of that mark are in).

I probably wouldnít mind as as much if Nick Lowery and Gary Anderson were in, but I donít think thatís going to happen. Itís especially unfortunate in Loweryís case, as one can make the argument that heís the best kicker adjusted for era in NFL history. See this link:

The Greatest Field Goal Kickers Of All Time II, Part III: Career Rankings
Sorry Stuart's way off and from 2015
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Old 01-06-2018, 01:15 PM
 
1,177 posts, read 479,141 times
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Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Like it or not Vinatieri will get in to the HOF and it will likely be before Nick Lowery even if Adam plays another 2-3 seasons.

The "era adjusted" nonsense is ONE man's "advanced metric" and isn't going to come in to play during the discussion of HOFers. Vinatieri has a higher FG made % than Lowery....period

He also has more clutch kicks including 2 SB game winners. Stating Lowery was "better" because he made more kicks than "expected" for his era based on what other kickers of the same era were doing is nonsense. He also gives weight to average distance of attempt which favors teams with poor offenses yet dismisses Vinatieri's game winners because other kickers didn't have the same opportunity?

Maybe if Vinatieri had played his career on bad teams the way Lowery did his average distance for attempt would be longer. Not his fault that Brady and Manning/Luck get their teams into the Red Zone more often with failed end zone attempts resulting in more chip shots.

All that matters is what the HOF voters think and I know one for sure, Peter King, has stated repeatedly Vinatieri will be getting in when his time comes

"Iím not one to be a fanboy for Hall of Fame players before their time, but I cannot fathom a way Vinatieri will not make it into Canton the first time heís eligible."
https://www.stampedeblue.com/2016/11...t-ballot-colts

Stuart's methodology is flawed and HOF voters will not be looking at his tables when they choose Vinatieri to get a gold jacket.
I donít doubt Vinatieri will get in the HoF, though for reasons already stated, I donít think heís worthy, at least not unless Lowery and Anderson get in (get these two folks in and Iíll mind a lot less, though I doubt it happens). Just because several of the HoF voters think otherwise doesnít mean theyíre necessarily right. To me, his HoF case is heavily narrative based (the clutch kicks thing being part of this) and lacks good number support and thoughtful judgement.

Your flat comparison of raw FG percentages between the two players simply doesnít work. Kickers have been notably more accurate during Vinatieriís career than they were in back in Loweryís. Iíve seen people whine about Jan Stenerud being a bad HoF choice because his FG percentage isnít as good as those of modern day kickers, and thatís just as ill-considered.

I also donít understand what you think is wrong with Stuartís approach other than:

-complaining about long FG opportunities, which makes no sense to me. All kickers have to attempt long field goals, and what matters is how many you make in relation to how many you try, not just how many you try. If Lowery had gotten more chances but missed all of them, heíd be HoF unworthy. But it appears he didnít miss often, and made these much more frequently than his peers ó and relative to his peers better than anyone else in any other era. Accuracy matters when youíre a kicker, and I always thought a HoF should honor the most accomplished candidates. And unlike postseason opportunities, every kicker has to try long distance regular season field goals.

-general grousing about his attempt to use an advanced metrics approach to the issue. Do you think thatís a bad thing? And if you think itís flawed, do you have a better metric approach to replace it?
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