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Old 05-07-2018, 03:12 PM
 
1,182 posts, read 479,694 times
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I’m okay with pure punters being in the HoF, though whether Ray Guy is the one who should be there is a good question. Note that there are several players who were punters and also played a field position in the HoF — examples include Sammy Baugh, Yale Lary, Norm Van Brocklin, and Bob Waterfield.

Myself, I think Tommy Davis from the 50s-60s 49ers has a far better case than Guy, especially when looking at yards per punt. For several years, Davis was second only to Baugh in that category — plus he was a placekicker who was devastatingly accurate on XPTs, though only okay in FG percentage, mostly because of swirling winds in Kezar Stadium at the time.

No question Guy was considered the best punter of his day — but his supposed revolutionary status is very overblown. Punters knew about the value of hang time prior to Guy. I’m okay with him being in, though mostly as a start to inducting folks like Davis, Verne Lewellen, and a couple other folks.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Yeah. The math says that punters just are not influential enough to warrant either big contracts, or a place in the Hall of Fame. The difference between a good punter and an average punter is a few yards a game. Now if the idea is to take every position and place the very best represenatives of that position in the Hall regardless of their actual contributions to the team, then Guy and perhaps a few others should be inducted. To be fair, I'm a stickler when it comes to the baseball Hall of Fame. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Willie Mays. Mike Schmidt and Walter Johnson deserve the Hall. Bruce Sutter and Tony Perez do not. It is for the very very best players, not the very good players.
The elite of the elite argument is a ship that sailed when Tommy McCarthy (1946) and Candy Cummings (1939) were inducted in the BBHoF in 1946 and both Walt Kiesling and Joe Guyon got in the PFHoF in 1966.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SonnyCrockett View Post
Definitely this post hits on the mark in regards to my mentality abut enshrinement to the Hall-of-Fame. I think the elite punters should be in. Not very many for sure- maybe only Guy and Roby- but nevertheless they were truly dominant at their position and I think of that aspect far more than if the outcomes of games were influenced enough by the position he plays. If we are going to talk outcomes of games, did the likes of OJ Simpson matter when he played for the Niners and Bills? The teams he was on almost always stunk.

The Hall-of-Fame is watered down imo and too many players continue to be inducted who shouldn't be. Other than the very elite punters and say, a Pete Rose because of other circumstances that are keeping him out of course, I can't think of a player I'd make a case for who should be in, but isn't. I only care so much about stats when stats aren't created equally from different eras, or even from the same eras due to different supporting casts, different home stadiums, etc... . I want to simply use common sense and ask myself, was such-or-such individual truly dominant at his craft over a long enough duration? I understand the debate over a guy like Terrell Davis. I also understand its subjective. I do not however understand how somebody watched Kurt Warner in football or Bert Blyleven in baseball and think, "those are elite caliber players I watched for much of their careers". "Hall-of-Fame" should truly define greatness and bring up connotations of the very best and not those were simply very good, compiled stats based on longevity, or get the benefit of some single, silly angle (first third baseman to hit 40 homeruns in a season, walk 100 times, make fewer than 20 errors, and abstain from tobacco every Sunday of the season): too often voters and fans have more and more lost sight of this and been haphazard in denoting somebody a "Hall-of-Fame" caliber player.
I actually did think Blyleven and Warner were HoF level players when I saw them, FWIW.
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Old 05-07-2018, 07:29 PM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Your getting into the area where some players playing some postions have minimal value and have scant little influence on the game. Do you put into the baseball Hall of Fame the player who was the best pinch hitter in Major League history?
Your comparison is nonsensical.

A pinch hitter isn't a position - it's a specialty, like playing kickoff coverage. No one is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame for kickoff coverage, just like no one is in the Baseball Hall of Fame for pinch hitting.

Punter is a position in football. Go ahead and compare that to any position in baseball (clue: every position in baseball is represented in the Hall, in including the DH - Hall of Famer Frank Thomas played the majority of his games at DH).
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Old 05-08-2018, 07:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Raptor76 View Post
I think if a Special Team player is elite, he should be admitted. I have no problem with Ray Guy getting in, just like I feel Steve Tasker and Devin Huster should get in, because they had a huge impact on how their teams won football games. No one should over look a guy just because of his position. The Hall does the same thing with Offensive Linemen. Well, they are getting better with Offensive Linemen, but they still have a ways to go.
The problem with inducting Tasker or Hester is that they were specialists who were good in only one limited aspect of the game. Both were listed as WRs but werenít accomplished enough to get on the field in that capacity.

Tasker has an added problem in that we donít know who was the best gunner in NFL history. It might be Tasker, or someone who played before his time. Problem is we just donít know for sure. Plus someone like Matthew Slater may have eclipsed Taskerís accomplishments by now.

Players like Sammy Baugh and Yale Lary were HoF level players at their positions irrespective of their special teams contributions. I can see that as an important difference.
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Old 05-08-2018, 12:00 PM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Ray Guy is in the pro football Hall of Fame. He was a great punter but no punter should be in the Hall of Fame. They do not make a big enough difference. The average game sees 5 punts for each team. If one team has the best punter in the league, and the other team has an average punter, the difference in yardage is 10-15 yards. A good running back or wide receiver would make a bigger difference when compared to the average running back or wide receiver. With that criteria, Mark Brunell and Frank Wycheck should be in the Hall.

Totally disagree!! If you don't want to have punter in the HOF, what about coaches? General Managers? They do even less on the football field.


All positions should be in the HOF, it's just harder to make it as a punter. With that said, the next punter should be the Rams Johnny Hekker.
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Old 05-08-2018, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Just One of the Guys View Post
Totally disagree!! If you don't want to have punter in the HOF, what about coaches? General Managers? They do even less on the football field.


All positions should be in the HOF, it's just harder to make it as a punter. With that said, the next punter should be the Rams Johnny Hekker.
Iíve seen folks pushing for Shane Lechler, but what do I know?
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Old 05-08-2018, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Here
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Originally Posted by Just One of the Guys View Post
Totally disagree!! If you don't want to have punter in the HOF, what about coaches? General Managers? They do even less on the football field.


All positions should be in the HOF, it's just harder to make it as a punter. With that said, the next punter should be the Rams Johnny Hekker.
Coaches and general managers aren't on the field, but they have a farrr greater effect on the outcome of games than do punters. A back-up running back who carries the ball a handful of times a game makes a bigger difference in the average game than does a punter. The argument in favor of punters in the HOF rests on the notion that all positions deserve representation, regardless of their importance. Similarly, you could make an argument that the HOF is strictly for players. Coaches and general managers are not eligable. It is all a matter of what you want the HOF to look like.
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Old 05-10-2018, 02:11 PM
 
Location: California
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Originally Posted by GalileoSmith View Post
Coaches and general managers aren't on the field, but they have a farrr greater effect on the outcome of games than do punters. A back-up running back who carries the ball a handful of times a game makes a bigger difference in the average game than does a punter. The argument in favor of punters in the HOF rests on the notion that all positions deserve representation, regardless of their importance. Similarly, you could make an argument that the HOF is strictly for players. Coaches and general managers are not eligable. It is all a matter of what you want the HOF to look like.
Not when you have a great HOF caliber punter where field position is keen, and when he can consistently punt the ball inside the 5 yard line. That is a true weapon!! And in my opinion way more of a difference maker than a back-up running back!!

With that said, he would have to be truly great, and that is why only one has made it thus far. Ray Guy is proof they belong.

The HOF is fine the way it is. Anyone whose contributions to the game is so great they are worthy of HOF admission belongs in the HOF regardless of position or title
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Old 05-10-2018, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Here
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Originally Posted by Just One of the Guys View Post
Not when you have a great HOF caliber punter where field position is keen, and when he can consistently punt the ball inside the 5 yard line. That is a true weapon!! And in my opinion way more of a difference maker than a back-up running back!!

With that said, he would have to be truly great, and that is why only one has made it thus far. Ray Guy is proof they belong.

The HOF is fine the way it is. Anyone whose contributions to the game is so great they are worthy of HOF admission belongs in the HOF regardless of position or title
I don't mean to be a prick about this but I know of no data that would indicate that Ray Guy consistently punted the ball inside the 5 yard line significantly more often than the average punter. Perhaps no such data was taken at the time.

Let's compare Ray Guy's career with one of his contemporaries, the long-forgotten Dave Jennings. Jennings career was slightly longer. He had 1154 punts and averaged 41.2 per punt. Guy had 1049 punts and averaged 42.4. They averaged about 5 punts per game. According to mathematics, the difference between Jennings, and Guy, over the course of their careers was about 5 yards per game. To me, that is not significant and is back-up running back territory.
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