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Old 09-05-2018, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,849,269 times
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This idea was inspired by the overpayment of Khalil Mack by Chicago. I wouldn't even put Mack in a Top 10 of this era yet...

I didn't rank the players, but here's my Top 10 in no order. What do you guys think?

•Navarro Bowman, LB, SF
4x All-Pro, 3x Pro Bowler
Anchored #2 (2011/2012) and #3 (2013) scoring defenses as SF best player on three consecutive NFCCG appearances

•Luke Kuechly, LB, Carolina
5x All-Pro, 5x Pro Bowler, 2013 DPOY, 2012 DROY
This era's Derrick Brooks. Dependable, playmaker, unquestionable HOF'er...

•Gerald McCoy, DT, TB
4x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowl
Seems to be running outta gas now but there was a stretch where he was only second to Suh as an interior rusher...

•Von Miller, LB, Denver
SB champion, SB50 MVP, 6x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowler, 2011 DROY
The most disruptive linebacker since peak Ray Lewis...also took over a Super Bowl like Lewis...first ballot HOF'er

•Richard Sherman, CB, Seattle
SB48 champion, 4x All-Pro, 4x Pro Bowler, 2013 interceptions leader
Most complete corner of this era. If he can have a resurgence with SF, could go down as one of the best to play his position...

•Ndamukong Suh, DT, Det/Miami
5x All-Pro, 5x Pro Bowler, 2010 DROY
One of the most dominant interior lineman EVER, at his peak. If he can return to form, will continue to add to that legacy and erase some of the more negative aspects of his pro career...

•Earl Thomas, S, Seattle
SB48 champion, 5x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowler
I personally think Thomas is a little overrated, but there is no denial he's the best safety of this decade...

•Bobby Wagner, LB, Seattle
SB48 champion, 4x All-Pro, 4x Pro Bowler
If Kuechly is Brooks and Miller is Lewis, Wagner's comp would be Urlacher. Not quite as individually dominant as Miller or Kuechly, but definitely a stud on the inside in the middle of the field...

•Eric Weddle, S, Chargers
5x All-Pro, 5x Pro Bowler, 2011 interceptions leader
I love his play, he reminds me of Polamalu. Seems to have lost a step but this guy is a Hall of Famer...

•JJ Watt, DE, Houston
4x All-Pro, 4x Pro Bowler, 3x DPOY, 2x sack leader, 2017 MOY
Can you imagine if he regains peak dominance? Can you imagine if he wins a Super Bowl? Watt is one of the greatest players I've ever seen in my 19 years watching the sport, easily Top 10. His peak is up there on the shortest of lists with the greatest defensive players EVER. Hopefully he can bounce back, because if he's even 60% of the player he was pre-injury, he's still a 50-tackle, 10-sack guy. Who isn't rooting for Watt? Best defensive player if the decade in my eyes, only debatable if he never recuperates and his window was only 2012-2015...

Lasting takes:

Only three of the Top 10 Defenders (Weddle, Watt, Miller) are AFC players. This mirrors to me the evidence of the NFC being the more dominant conference this devade, with the larger share of great players...

No surprise that there are more linebackers than anyone else. It's the most critical position on defense to me, and if you have a great one there, an All-Timer, they can cover for and mask deficiencies in other levels of the defense...

Finally, history will remember Seattle's 2012-2015 LOB era as one of the greatest defenses ever. Four straight years of top scoring defense, Pro Bowlers and All-Pros at every level, quite possibly the greatest secondary ever in that stretch once you account for the contributions of Chancellor, Browner, Shead in that span. As it is, three of them are absolutely Top 10 Defenders of this era. Two of them are the best at their positions, cumulatively, for the decade. Seahawks deserve the respect for their accomplishments and I think the further removed we go from their run, the more we will appreciate their contributions!

Last edited by murksiderock; 09-05-2018 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 09-05-2018, 04:03 PM
 
4,292 posts, read 1,865,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
This idea was inspired by the overpayment of Khalil Mack by Chicago. I wouldn't even put Mack in a Top 10 of this era yet...

I didn't rank the players, but here's my Top 10 in no order. What do you guys think?
While I also suspect that Mack might be overpaid, it is bias and unfair to compare to players that have played in some cases since the start of the 2010 decade. Mack was drafted in 2014 meaning he only has four seasons in this decade. Keuchly and Wagnore are the next youngest at six seasons but that's two more seasons than Mack has. All the rest of the players were drafted in 2011 or earlier and have far more seasons in this era than Mack. You can't rack up pro-bowls and all pro nods when you only have four seasons under your belt.
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Old 09-05-2018, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,849,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
While I also suspect that Mack might be overpaid, it is bias and unfair to compare to players that have played in some cases since the start of the 2010 decade. Mack was drafted in 2014 meaning he only has four seasons in this decade. Keuchly and Wagnore are the next youngest at six seasons but that's two more seasons than Mack has. All the rest of the players were drafted in 2011 or earlier and have far more seasons in this era than Mack. You can't rack up pro-bowls and all pro nods when you only have four seasons under your belt.
This is fair. However, consider:

--Four years in (2014), Watt was a 2x DPOY, 3 All-Pros, 3 Pro Bowls, and the most dominant defender in the sport. Mack is not the most dominant player at his position...

--four years in (2013), Thomas was the most dominant player at his position and anchor of the most dominant secondary in football...

--four years in (2013), Suh was arguably the most dominant defender in The League. People forget how good he was. He was All-Pro as a rookie and a perennial DPOY candidate, and dark horse MVP. When is the last time a defensive player made the All-Pro team as a rookie?

--four years in (2014), Sherman was the best cornerback in football...

--Miller may not have been the best defender four years in (Kuechly probably better in '14), but he was better than Mack...

--four years in (2015), Kuechly was way better than Mack, and led a Top 5 defense to the Super Bowl. More dynamic versus the pass than Mack at this stage, better sideline to sideline awareness than Mack, tied with Miller as best LB in football...

--people also forget how special Bowman was four years in (2013). Maybe not better than Mack but definitely not worse...

While I agree that at four years in he doesn't have the accolades some of his contemporaries have, the point isn't hinged on accolades. There is a common thread with 6-7 of these guys--->at four years in they were either #1 at their positions, or the best defensive player in football, period. Mack is neither the best linebacker in football nor the best defensive player in football. If he belonged in the best defenders of this era, it would be known after four years. And now he is in the NFC, which has the higher ratio of elite defensive players...
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Old 09-05-2018, 08:24 PM
 
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Who would you consider the most dominant player at Mack’s position? And what do you base that off of?

I think it is arguable that he is not the most dominant player at his position currently. He’s goin from a bad defensive supporting cast to one that was already top 10 without him. Don’t be shocked to see a resurgence in his numbers in 2018.
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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I think Von Miller is more dominant, and I think Kuechly and Wagner are more versatile, if we're going by his core position (linebacker). If we are talking bull rushers regardless of position, I think Clowney is better, Miller is better, and I think an argument can be made that Lawrence in Dallas is better...

My biggest gripe with Mack is he's a specialty player. He is elite at getting to the quarterback, but that's it. He isn't elite at stopping the run (Raiders d vs run is evidence), he isn't elite at covering the pass either versus backs or intermediate pass catchers. He's a one-off player with one skill that he's Top 3-4 in (rushing the passer). He's got great moves off the edge, from both sides, can work the outside or push underneath. He's got quickness and he's strong as hell. He is a ***** to defend coming at your QB...

But it's his only elite talent. He isn't a $20 million/year guy for a skill set that, while rare to be that good at it, can be replicated with consistency at multiple positions and quality scheming. Sure, it's hard to find that talent in one guy. But if that's his only elite skill, he isn't getting elite money...

For comparison, look at Watt through four years. Much, much, much more dominant pass rusher, much more stout against the run, big enough and quick enough to play the passing lanes (batted passes), could play anywhere along the line inside/out, could defend in pass coverage, underrated ball skills, turn over machine, I mean where did it stop with JJ Watt? The gap at four years in between Mack and Watt is colossal. You can replace what Mack can give you with scheming and multiple guys that may not be great, but consistent. You can't replicate prime JJ Watt. The best you can hope for is another elite pass rusher that can do some of the things he can do (Clowney). No amount of guys come with the totality of what JJ Watt brought to the field. It was more than evident four years in...

Give me Kuechly over Mack any day. Kuechly lacks Mack's elite pass rushing skill, his power and quickness off the edge. But Kuechly can do so much more, is a more complete player, and he can also rush the passer effectively (just a step down from the extraordinary level at which Mack does it)...

I don't get it about Mack, I really don't. When he won DPOY two years ago, I always attributed that more to the NFL's love affair rewarding rushers who have a great year over other great defenders. Landon Collins was more deserving of DPOY over Mack that year...
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:06 AM
 
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Do you think Bowman was the best defender on those SF teams or was Patrick Willis the best defender? There are people who feel that Willis was the best linebacker in football during his time in the NFL.
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Willis belongs, but didn't he break down before the Super Bowl run? I may have my timeline wrong, but I absolutely believe he was a better player than Mack. I think he and Bowman were 1a/1b when both were healthy and Willis at his peak was All-Timer caliber, but his career was cut short...
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:21 PM
 
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The only guy i would say plays the same position and is on the same level as Mack is Miller. And even Miller had a down year last year.

Keuchly and Wagoner play completely different positions.

Lawerence has literally only been a one year wonder so far. And that one year he really was only good for half a season. He completely hit a wall the second half of the season. Maybe teams started to game plan for him? He had 10.5 sacks through seven games and only added four sacks in the final 9 games played last year.

Clowney, seems like a great talent but the production just isn't there and he has had injury concerns as well.

And pretty much all these other top defenders with the exception of Lawerence in Dallas have always been surrounded with other great defensive players on their teams as well. Mack has not had the benefit of that so far in his early career.
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Old 09-06-2018, 06:19 PM
 
4,988 posts, read 11,074,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
This idea was inspired by the overpayment of Khalil Mack by Chicago. I wouldn't even put Mack in a Top 10 of this era yet...

I didn't rank the players, but here's my Top 10 in no order. What do you guys think?

•Navarro Bowman, LB, SF
4x All-Pro, 3x Pro Bowler
Anchored #2 (2011/2012) and #3 (2013) scoring defenses as SF best player on three consecutive NFCCG appearances

•Luke Kuechly, LB, Carolina
5x All-Pro, 5x Pro Bowler, 2013 DPOY, 2012 DROY
This era's Derrick Brooks. Dependable, playmaker, unquestionable HOF'er...

•Gerald McCoy, DT, TB
4x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowl
Seems to be running outta gas now but there was a stretch where he was only second to Suh as an interior rusher...

•Von Miller, LB, Denver
SB champion, SB50 MVP, 6x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowler, 2011 DROY
The most disruptive linebacker since peak Ray Lewis...also took over a Super Bowl like Lewis...first ballot HOF'er

•Richard Sherman, CB, Seattle
SB48 champion, 4x All-Pro, 4x Pro Bowler, 2013 interceptions leader
Most complete corner of this era. If he can have a resurgence with SF, could go down as one of the best to play his position...

•Ndamukong Suh, DT, Det/Miami
5x All-Pro, 5x Pro Bowler, 2010 DROY
One of the most dominant interior lineman EVER, at his peak. If he can return to form, will continue to add to that legacy and erase some of the more negative aspects of his pro career...

•Earl Thomas, S, Seattle
SB48 champion, 5x All-Pro, 6x Pro Bowler
I personally think Thomas is a little overrated, but there is no denial he's the best safety of this decade...

•Bobby Wagner, LB, Seattle
SB48 champion, 4x All-Pro, 4x Pro Bowler
If Kuechly is Brooks and Miller is Lewis, Wagner's comp would be Urlacher. Not quite as individually dominant as Miller or Kuechly, but definitely a stud on the inside in the middle of the field...

•Eric Weddle, S, Chargers
5x All-Pro, 5x Pro Bowler, 2011 interceptions leader
I love his play, he reminds me of Polamalu. Seems to have lost a step but this guy is a Hall of Famer...

•JJ Watt, DE, Houston
4x All-Pro, 4x Pro Bowler, 3x DPOY, 2x sack leader, 2017 MOY
Can you imagine if he regains peak dominance? Can you imagine if he wins a Super Bowl? Watt is one of the greatest players I've ever seen in my 19 years watching the sport, easily Top 10. His peak is up there on the shortest of lists with the greatest defensive players EVER. Hopefully he can bounce back, because if he's even 60% of the player he was pre-injury, he's still a 50-tackle, 10-sack guy. Who isn't rooting for Watt? Best defensive player if the decade in my eyes, only debatable if he never recuperates and his window was only 2012-2015...

Lasting takes:

Only three of the Top 10 Defenders (Weddle, Watt, Miller) are AFC players. This mirrors to me the evidence of the NFC being the more dominant conference this devade, with the larger share of great players...

No surprise that there are more linebackers than anyone else. It's the most critical position on defense to me, and if you have a great one there, an All-Timer, they can cover for and mask deficiencies in other levels of the defense...

Finally, history will remember Seattle's 2012-2015 LOB era as one of the greatest defenses ever. Four straight years of top scoring defense, Pro Bowlers and All-Pros at every level, quite possibly the greatest secondary ever in that stretch once you account for the contributions of Chancellor, Browner, Shead in that span. As it is, three of them are absolutely Top 10 Defenders of this era. Two of them are the best at their positions, cumulatively, for the decade. Seahawks deserve the respect for their accomplishments and I think the further removed we go from their run, the more we will appreciate their contributions!
I have no problem with your list of the top defenders though I think Aaron Donald already belongs there after 4 years,,,


I don't get your premise that the NFC has been the dominant conference over the past decade....just not supported by facts.

Interconference records exactly even over past 10 years with each conference having more wins in 5 out of the 10 seasons...

https://www.ryansleeper.com/50-years...-nfc-matchups/

Super Bowl Champions also even 5-5 over past 10 years

I just don't see an opinion of the top defenders tipping the scales for the NFC particularly when this is an offensive driven league by far.

How about the top QB's of this era, much more important to team success than a hodge podge of defenders..how many Super Bowl Rings for your top 10 defenders....that would be 4...hardly proof of a "dominance"


Brady

Manning

Rodgers

Brees

Rothliesberger

Rivers

Wilson

Luck

Ryan

Newton


Again...5-5 but those 5 AFC QB's have 9 SB rings compared to 3 for the 5 NFC QB's

There has been no NFC dominance over the past decade....great "teams" aren't necessarily collections of great "stars" that has been proven many times over...
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,849,269 times
Reputation: 4511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
The only guy i would say plays the same position and is on the same level as Mack is Miller. And even Miller had a down year last year.

Keuchly and Wagoner play completely different positions.

Lawerence has literally only been a one year wonder so far. And that one year he really was only good for half a season. He completely hit a wall the second half of the season. Maybe teams started to game plan for him? He had 10.5 sacks through seven games and only added four sacks in the final 9 games played last year.

Clowney, seems like a great talent but the production just isn't there and he has had injury concerns as well.

And pretty much all these other top defenders with the exception of Lawerence in Dallas have always been surrounded with other great defensive players on their teams as well. Mack has not had the benefit of that so far in his early career.
They all play the same core position, which is where I delineated, but I get your drift. A slot corner and an outside corner play the same position but have different functions...

Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon with all these separations of position within the last 5-8 years...

I understand your point. Mine is that four years in, he isn't Watt or Donald or Kuechly good. Guys that are more versatile at their jobs than Mack. What exactly does he excel in besides rushing the passer?
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