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Old 11-13-2018, 04:31 AM
 
1,578 posts, read 982,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleh View Post
way too much credit is given for a QB that is lucky enough to have a team carry them thru a SB..
Bob Griese..
on a team that won a SB despite them, not because of them.
Triple, Griese was an 8-time Pro Bowler. He was consistently in the top 7 QBs statistically of his era, in meaningful stats (passing TDs, yards per pass, etc).

I'd say he was integral to Miami's success.
I don't think Griese has been given too much credit.. if anything I believe he's actually been overshadowed by his better-known peers (Staubach, Bradshaw, etc). Peace

 
Old 11-13-2018, 07:44 AM
 
1,331 posts, read 1,014,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Attempts to rank Troy Aikman’s stats adjusted for era show him as excellent, well within HoF standards. Kiran Rasaretnam’s rankings have him 10th/10th/13th all time in best4/best7/best10 years, while Chase Stuart has him 38th all time in his system. Either way, no slouch.

One also has to remember that the Cowboys were run-first during his career, which would have depressed his raw numbers further.


Yes, the Cowboys were run-first during Troy's career, which makes sense because Emmitt Smith was one of the best running backs in NFL history. I don't really care about where other people have him ranked. Troy did not play in the stone ages and, yet, threw only 165 touchdowns to 141 interceptions. Pretty medicore rate, considering that the Cowboys were a running-heavy team that didn't force Troy to carry the offense and considering the players that he had around him.


Troy had one single season in a 12 year career where he threw for more than 19 touchdowns and also 1 single season where he threw for more than 3,400 yards. Think about that. Again, I know the Cowboys leaned on Emmitt Smith and that the NFL wasn't the pass-happy league that it is now but I was watching back then and it was not the stone ages. In the end, it is just my opinion and we will never know what Troy might have done on a different team in a more wide-open offense but I really do think that he was just an above average QB rather than a great one. He gets lauded as a great one because they won 3 Super Bowls with the talent around him and he at least ensured that he didn't screw it up for them in the playoffs.
 
Old 11-13-2018, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
5,628 posts, read 4,221,968 times
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I agree, Aikman doesn't have the stats to warrant HOF consideration which is why you had to see him play to appreciate how great he was.. certainly a HOFer and in fact 1st ballot. I don't think you can sneak into the HOF on the first ballot if there was not a consensus on how great you were...

I do think being on a 3 time Super Bowl winning team certainly elevates your HOF consideration and being the QB, easily the most important position on the field, is likely why Aikman was first ballot.. an above average QB might back into a SB ring but nothing but an elite level HOF caliber QB can lead a team to 3 SBs in 4 years... JMO but also the opinion of HOF voters.
 
Old 11-13-2018, 11:38 AM
 
16,524 posts, read 20,969,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mco65 View Post
I agree, Aikman doesn't have the stats to warrant HOF consideration which is why you had to see him play to appreciate how great he was.. certainly a HOFer and in fact 1st ballot. I don't think you can sneak into the HOF on the first ballot if there was not a consensus on how great you were...

I do think being on a 3 time Super Bowl winning team certainly elevates your HOF consideration and being the QB, easily the most important position on the field, is likely why Aikman was first ballot.. an above average QB might back into a SB ring but nothing but an elite level HOF caliber QB can lead a team to 3 SBs in 4 years... JMO but also the opinion of HOF voters.
Certainly Troy benefited by the Hershel Walker trade. You almost have to get out an adding machine to calculate what Minnesota had to cough up before they got the running back that they felt could take them to the super bowl. That was the legacy Vikings GM Mike Lynn left. Oy! After that trade and some free agent signings (Jay Novacek for one), the next think you know is that Dallas wins 3 super bowls, 2 because of Jimmy Johnson and one in spite of Barry Switzer.

While Troy's stats don't quite stack up with the all time greats, I take a look at 3 years--1992, 1993, and 1995. His quarterback rating for those 3 years in the playoffs are 126.4, 104.0, and 106.1. After Parcells won 2 super bowls for the Giants and Joe Gibbs won 3 with the Redskins they took a back seat to the Cowboys in the NFC East. In the big games Aikman came up big.


Did he have a supporting cast? Sure did! Every time I think of the great Cowboys O-line I think of Larry Allen who cleared out lanes for Emmitt Smith like a front end loader. Had Irvin and Emmitt, both HOFers. Had other players who fit in well because of their system, see Jay Novacek. Jimmy Johnson immediately snapped up Jay. The knock on Jay was he wasn't a great blocker, with the Cowboys O-line that wasn't a problem. Irvin and Harper was a solid 1-2 at wide outs, Novacek went to several pro bowls, and
backup receiver Kelvin Martin (nicknamed K-Mart) could have started with other NFL clubs.
 
Old 11-14-2018, 07:59 AM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
10,460 posts, read 5,924,770 times
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Troy Aikman was a Hall of Famer, Alex Smith is not even close.



/thread
 
Old 11-14-2018, 09:07 AM
 
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
2,123 posts, read 4,317,272 times
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Larry Allen missed 2 of those SB teams and thus much of the Cowboy greatness. He was drafted in 1994 so for 4 years Allen wasn't there for Emmitt, arguably his best 4 years. Just wanted to clarify.

The rest of your post was spot on!


Smith in the HOF ... not even close. He's only considered as well as he is because he was in the Andy Reid system. Reid always seems to have great QB's. Talent or system?

Last edited by BobTex; 11-14-2018 at 09:19 AM..
 
Old 11-14-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: AriZona
5,230 posts, read 3,122,914 times
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OP, I realize that Alex Smith is the main subject on this thread, and winning a Super Bowl seems to be this thread's main emphasis for getting into the HOF -- at least for a QB?

The Pro Football HOF broke ground on August 11, 1962, and officially opened in 1963.

The first Super Bowl was not called a Super Bowl until after the NFL Packers had won the very first NFL-AFL World Championship Game against the AFL Chiefs in January, 1967.

Who/what exactly was placed into the HOF during the first four years of existence (1963 thru 1966), especially since having won a Super Bowl was not a prerequisite during those years?
 
Old 11-14-2018, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,211 posts, read 2,827,100 times
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Not even a question that Smith isn't a HOFer, only a run of 2+ consecutive Super Bowls would alter his narrative...

I never got the hype on Aikman. I only saw his last two years, and I always viewed him as slightly more than a game manager for an All-Time stacked team. Which is to say I think any B-level QB could have quarterbacked those champion Dallas teams...

From a statistical perspective though, Aikman seemed to have the juice in the postseason, most guys regress a little in the playoffs, Aikman's numbers accelerate across the board. I question if he was really a Top 5 QB of his day (Marino, Favre, Elway, Young, Kelly for me, any order), but his playoff numbers are Top 2 in that same peer group. That tells me there was a level of clutch within Aikman, who could seemingly be pedestrian numbers wise, but was a gamer with a capital G in the biggest spots...

I'm still not convinced he was actually a better QB than Romo, or just the beneficiary of a great team and a great system...
 
Old 11-14-2018, 12:35 PM
 
1,331 posts, read 1,014,229 times
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Aikman had more career turnovers (199 in all: 141 INTs + 58 fumbles) than touchdowns (174 in all: 165 passing TDs + 9 rushing TDs) through his career in the regular season. I will admit that his numbers improved during the playoffs.


Edit: the above 58 fumbles number is how many times Troy fumbled during the regular season during his career. I would have to dig a bit to see if I could come up with how many of those 58 fumbles were lost to the opposing team versus how many were recovered by the Cowboys.


2nd edit: after a bit more looking, NFL.com lists Aikman as having fumbled 47 times during his career, with only 22 of them having been lost. The 58 fumbles number above was from Pro Football Reference but is their list of how many fumbles he had (not how many he actually lost). Tough to know who to believe stats-wise.

Last edited by Jardine8; 11-14-2018 at 12:46 PM..
 
Old 11-14-2018, 05:38 PM
 
16,524 posts, read 20,969,751 times
Reputation: 47960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt AZ View Post

Who/what exactly was placed into the HOF during the first four years of existence (1963 thru 1966), especially since having won a Super Bowl was not a prerequisite during those years?
Here's the list:

1963- "Slingin" Sammy Baugh, Bert Bell, Joseph Carr, Dutch Clark, Harold "Red" Grange, George Halas, Cal Hubbard, Earl "Curley" Lambeau, Tim Mara, George Preston Marshall, John McNally, Bronko Nagurski, Ernie Nevers, Art Rooney, Jim Thorpe
Total of 15 inducted in the first year.

1964- Jim Conzelman, Ed Healey, Clark Hinkle, Mike Michalske, George Trafton

1965- Guy Chamberlain, John "Paddy" Driscoll, Dan Fortman, Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, Steve Van Buren, Bob Waterfield

1966- Bill Dudley, Joe Guyon, Walt Kiesling, George MacAfee, Steve Owen, Hugh "Shorty' Rae

IMO it was important to the league to have this many players in the HOF in its first year and actually there are as many owners and coaches in the Hall as there is players voted in that year, for instance George Halas (Bears), George Preston Marshall (Redskins), Tim Mara (NY Giants), Art Rooney (Steelers). Jim Thorpe is in there for several reasons, not that he was rolling up big stats in the NFL. He was a big name. How big? An Associated Press poll listed Thorpe as the greatest athlete in the first half of the 20th century, easily over Babe Ruth. He was the first noted NFL player in its history. And I believe everyone knows his appearances in the Olympics. AND he spent several years with the New York Giants (baseball) when John McGraw was the manager.

In 1967 the well known players, and players who have been discussed on this forum, started stacking up. That year the inductees were Dan Reeves (owner of L.A. Rams), Chuck Bednarik, Paul Brown, Charles Bidwell, and Bobby Layne.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 11-14-2018 at 10:08 PM.. Reason: spelling, addition
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