U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Pro Football
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-26-2018, 07:46 PM
 
Location: East Texas, with the Clan of the Cave Bear
2,129 posts, read 4,333,115 times
Reputation: 2492

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
What? He finished out the season last year, and clinched home field advantage for the Eagles in the playoffs. Then he won all the playoff games including the Superbowl in a shoot out with the best quarterback in football at the time. Now, he takes a downtrodden, extremely injured team (on both sides of the ball), and wins two games against playoff caliber opponents. Mark Sanchez NEVER did anything like that. Foles is ALREADY A STAR.
Have to agree with all this. I'm astounded at those who are downgrading Foles' performances . He was bad in LA but look at his HC there. Jeff Fisher the QB destroyer. He was somewhat mediocre early on this season but one could easily attribute that to the true SB hangover (Team attitude and the loss of the 2 assistant HC's). The team is playing for him as it did with his superlative performance in the Eagle's SB run last year when everyone thought that team was doomed. And played so superbly that in a high scoring game he won the MVP. WOW.

As a Cowboy fan I absolutely don't want to face Foles and the Eagles now. Only a football neophyte could fail to see what Foles has done... twice now!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-26-2018, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,703 posts, read 15,563,496 times
Reputation: 11524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher View Post
Not sure of his contract status but I would think it is more likely Foles gets traded for a first round pick. But if you are the Eagles just keep both of them for the time being. As for Wentz's value, it's probably two first round picks.
Stay with the likely scenario here.

Wentz is going nowhere. If Foles lead them to another SB, I will slightly reconsider.

This is not to short anything Foles has done. As quirky as his career has been, he holds numerous Eagle passing records. What hurts Foles is the unpredictability of who you are going to get.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2018, 09:11 PM
 
32,579 posts, read 26,518,361 times
Reputation: 19215
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
Itís true that some QBs play excellently well into their 30s, but most such guys (like Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Ryan, and Rivers) were always good as starters, at least from their mid-20s if not before. Then there are guys like Mark Sanchez who were teases throughout their 20s and never went anywhere. QBs who struggled throughout their 20s and then blossomed as consistent stars in their 30s are incredibly rare. I can only think of Warren Moon and Kurt Warner (who for unique reasons barely played in their 20s in the NFL), and Steve Young.

I think itís a tall order to expect Foles to suddenly become a star now. I think heís more likely going to be another Sanchez rather than the second coming of Young.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
What? He finished out the season last year, and clinched home field advantage for the Eagles in the playoffs. Then he won all the playoff games including the Superbowl in a shoot out with the best quarterback in football at the time. Now, he takes a downtrodden, extremely injured team (on both sides of the ball), and wins two games against playoff caliber opponents. Mark Sanchez NEVER did anything like that. Foles is ALREADY A STAR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTex View Post
Have to agree with all this. I'm astounded at those who are downgrading Foles' performances . He was bad in LA but look at his HC there. Jeff Fisher the QB destroyer. He was somewhat mediocre early on this season but one could easily attribute that to the true SB hangover (Team attitude and the loss of the 2 assistant HC's). The team is playing for him as it did with his superlative performance in the Eagle's SB run last year when everyone thought that team was doomed. And played so superbly that in a high scoring game he won the MVP. WOW.

As a Cowboy fan I absolutely don't want to face Foles and the Eagles now. Only a football neophyte could fail to see what Foles has done... twice now!

bachslunch, i have to agree with the others here. i watched foles here at the UA take a team that was lackadaisical and turn them around to a bowl contender. foles had a poor start to his NFL career, partly because he went to a team that was rebuilding, and partly because he needed to learn the pro game. not every QB coming out of college does great right off the bat you know. then foles got bounced around to teams that didnt fit his style of play, an as such he got pushed aside.


now he is back at philly and doing quite well thank you. he replaced wentz last season and took the eagles to a super bowl win. he again replaces wentz this season and has the team on the verge of getting into the playoffs despite the issues the team has had. granted they need a little help, like chicago beating the vikings, to get into the playoffs, but they are right there.


since he was given the chance foles has proven himself to be a good NFL quarterback. in fact there are teams that are hoping that the eagles dont make the playoffs so they can pick foles up cheap. if the eagles make the playoffs again this year, and they win a game or two, foles stock goes up considerably.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-26-2018, 10:42 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,254 posts, read 2,875,710 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
It’s true that some QBs play excellently well into their 30s, but most such guys (like Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Ryan, and Rivers) were always good as starters, at least from their mid-20s if not before. Then there are guys like Mark Sanchez who were teases throughout their 20s and never went anywhere. QBs who struggled throughout their 20s and then blossomed as consistent stars in their 30s are incredibly rare. I can only think of Warren Moon and Kurt Warner (who for unique reasons barely played in their 20s in the NFL), and Steve Young.

I think it’s a tall order to expect Foles to suddenly become a star now. I think he’s more likely going to be another Sanchez rather than the second coming of Young.
You forgot Rich Gannon! And it's kinda disrespectful to compare Foles with Mark Sanchez lol. Sanchez never accomplished anything close to what Foles has done. He was a game manager that rode to two championship games with an elite defense...

Regardless, my point wasn't that Foles is a star. I don't think he is, but he's absolutely a starter-level quarterback, and at his best, he can be as good as any QB in the game. When was Mark Sanchez ever as good as the best quarterbacks in the game? Hahaha...

Foles is 29, he isn't 39. You guys are acting like his career is over...

The big question I have for you is what exactly has Wentz done, in terms of accomplishments that Foles hasn't done? Again, I don't disagree that Wentz is probably the better player, but that hasn't translated into results. 9-7 in last 16 versus 8-8, essentially the same results. If the name of the game is to WIN, show me how Wentz makes the Eagles a better team? Oh, but I can name something Foles has done that Wentz hasn't...

Look, these things are never easy, we can go through NFL history and pull up many situations of quarterback controversy. And I'm honest, I'm not sure what the right answer is. All I'm saying is that there is absolutely a reason to consider a permanent change. It has to be considered. Wentz doesn't have the cache or the resume to warrant him being the guy, no matter what. Even if Foles loses this Sunday, this is still a conversation, because this isn't about a one-game hot take. There is a body of work to consider here, for both players. One guy we're talking all "potential", but what does that really mean? RG3 had potential. Kaepernick had potential. Ryan Leaf had potential...

This is not easy but I don't think Wentz has earned the right to permanent starter-dom. Especially if Foles gets the same team into the playoffs that Wentz struggled to win with this year...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTex View Post
Have to agree with all this. I'm astounded at those who are downgrading Foles' performances . He was bad in LA but look at his HC there. Jeff Fisher the QB destroyer. He was somewhat mediocre early on this season but one could easily attribute that to the true SB hangover (Team attitude and the loss of the 2 assistant HC's). The team is playing for him as it did with his superlative performance in the Eagle's SB run last year when everyone thought that team was doomed. And played so superbly that in a high scoring game he won the MVP. WOW.

As a Cowboy fan I absolutely don't want to face Foles and the Eagles now. Only a football neophyte could fail to see what Foles has done... twice now!
Funny about Jeff Fisher, I heard some commentary the other day that was funny but may very well be true. Steve McNair won co-MVP in 2003 under Fisher. Most of his career he was an average QB. Somebody made a point that if we ever got to see McNair with a QB whisperer/competent offensive coach, he may have been the greatest of all time! Lol I don't think anybody seriously believes best ever with McNair, but I think there is some seriousness to wondering exactly how much untapped potential McNair had that was held back by playing for Fisher, that could have been opened and blossomed under an elite offensive mind. There may be some truth to that!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2018, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Redneckville, NJ
6,784 posts, read 10,205,988 times
Reputation: 3325
I'm 100% against trading Wentz. Good article on the Wentz/Foles thing.

If you think Nick Foles is a long-term answer for the Eagles, you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2018, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
10,520 posts, read 5,984,653 times
Reputation: 16334
It amuses me that people take Nick Foles' last 7 games (3 playoffs last year, 4 games this season) and ignore the other 50 games and have proclaimed him a star. Not a whole lot different to me than evaluating Ryan Fitzpatrick or Joe Flacco based only on their good games.

There's a reason Nick Foles nearly quit the game. He is what he is, a very inconsistent QB who can be great, then terrible. You don't win long term with that sort of player.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2018, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,254 posts, read 2,875,710 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
It amuses me that people take Nick Foles' last 7 games (3 playoffs last year, 4 games this season) and ignore the other 50 games and have proclaimed him a star. Not a whole lot different to me than evaluating Ryan Fitzpatrick or Joe Flacco based only on their good games.

There's a reason Nick Foles nearly quit the game. He is what he is, a very inconsistent QB who can be great, then terrible. You don't win long term with that sort of player.
Nick Foles last 16 starts: 8-8 (.500)
Foles career: 25-18 (.581)

Carson Wentz last 16 starts: 9-7 (.563)
Wentz career: 23-17 (.575)

I think you nailed the Flacco comp. Starter level quarterback, but not elite. Can elevate his play in big moments. Streaky and prone to turnovers and cold stretches. Sounds like Foles, this was an excellent comp...

What I would pose to you, though, because I don't disagree with you looking at Foles' career. But why are you so sure Carson Wentz is the answer? Treating him the same as Foles, looking at both his career and his last 16, he's the same guy! Different style of play but the same results!! If Wentz had a convincing case as elevating the roster, I'd buy all the way in. He doesn't though, which is why this is a worthy debate...

A telling stat that embodies the offensive-friendly league today. Wentz had his second highest passer rating of the season in the loss at Dallas three weeks ago (120.3). If you didn't watch the game, you can be tricked into thinking wow, Wentz was amazing. I watched that entire game, Wentz was mediocre for three quarters. He did have some urgency and step up in the fourth, but that game looked just like his other 10 games this year: solid, above average, but not spectacular. Large chunks of that game he couldn't move the ball, errant throws...

For all of Foles' streakiness, essentially he and Wentz get the same results as a starter. Your #1 guy has to be clearly better than your #2. I think we all look at 2017 Wentz and assume that's his norm, but if we are being honest, that season is an outlier. Year 1 and Year 3 Wentz are what it appears his "normal" is closer to. Foles also had a year (2013) where he looked elite. That's not his normal. Why are we so quick to assume Wentz is this player he hasn't shown us he can be with consistency? Because he's more consistent, less streaky? Okay, why hasn't that consistency manifested into a higher performing team (re: more wins!) when he's in the lineup?

They get the same results, so now you have to painstakingly figure out who the best fit for the franchise is. I'm amused that so many of you are so willing to hand it over to Wentz, who now has an established pattern of being hurt at the most critical time if the season, and has shown himself to be good, but not all-world, keep at all costs. He's good, but he's only a slightly above .500 player we're talking about as a starter. We're not talking about Wilson or Luck or anybody with an established record. This is amazing to me that everybody wants to anoint him over Foles with no discussion...

Double H, can we get your viewpoint, please? I know you've witnessed many a QB controversy, what is your approach here?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2018, 09:43 AM
 
Location: California
2,022 posts, read 2,024,137 times
Reputation: 1790
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
I say keep Nick Foles, sign him to a long term deal, and trade Wentz to the most desperate team in need of a QB -- and pocket about 3 number one draft picks and maybe 3 number 2's for him. Dallas traded Hershel Walker, picked up about 9 draft picks, and went on to win 3 super bowls in the 90's. Follow that playbook.

The Eagles wont trade Wentz, they would most likely trade Foles before they trade Wentz. And as for what you think Wentz is worth, keep dreaming. He isn't worth half of what you are saying. He's worth maybe a 1 and two 2's at the most.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2018, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,254 posts, read 2,875,710 times
Reputation: 4555
Exclamation Wentz vs Foles H2H Last 16 starts...

Wentz
9-7 record
383-577 passing (66.4% comp), 4307 yds, 7.5 ypa
35-9 TD-int (6.1 TD%, 1.6 int%)
102.2 passer rating
56 rushes, 189 yards, 0 TD
11 fumbles, 37 sacks taken


Foles
9-7 record
316-532 passing (59.4% comp), 3226 yards, 6.1 ypa.
16-14 TD-int (3.0 TD%, 2.6 int%)
81.9 passer rating
9 rushes, 2 yards, 0 TD
8 fumbles, 20 sacks taken

I have been shorting Foles this whole time, he was actually 9-7 in his last 16 starts. He'll be 8-8 if he loses this week to Washington, or 10-6 if he wins...

......

So here's what the numbers can tell me:

They have the exact same record in their last 16 starts. Wentz is the considerably more accurate passer. He throws the ball better downfield, he takes better care of the football, much higher touchdown percentage with a lower turnover percentage than Foles. He is a threat to run the ball, Foles is really no threat at all for the rush. We know Wentz is the better scrambler and better operator when the play breaks down. He does take more sacks, and if there is one metric Foles is clearly better in, he doesn't hold the ball as long as Wentz, which is why he isn't hit as often or take as many sacks...

The numbers confirm what we already know. Carson Wentz is the better player of the two, better talent and higher ceiling. But this brings into play the old adage, numbers only tell part of the story:

They have the same exact record of 9-7 in their last 16 starts...

The big question is why, and this is where intangibles outside traditional stats come into play. How does a guy who is clearly less talented than the other guy, achieve the same results as the more talented player with higher upside? The Eagles respond differently to Foles and are a different threat with him. It was mentioned this week that Foles is more coachable than Wentz and stays within the gameplan and can execute, while Wentz has a little more personality (re:attitude) and tends to go off script away from the gameplan more often than coaches would like. I'm not in the room, I don't know, but this is what was leaked...

This probably has at least some bearing on why the high-upside guy doesn't win more games than the less-talented guy. There has to be more here. And just this year, Foles is playing with the same Eagles team and will finish with a winning record regardless of Sunday's outcome, to Wentz's 5-6 record this year. This is why you watch the games. The stats say Wentz has been amazing. The eye test says he's been average to slightly above, and in 2018 the offense is responding better under Foles than they did for Wentz. This isn't some coincidence. It isn't a coincidence he's a 9-7 guy just like his backup...

Personally, if I have two guys that can give me the same end result in W-L, I want the guy with the higher upside and the better playmaker. That's Wentz. This would be Wentz if this were the only consideration, but it isn't! The offense this year is playing better under Foles, and Wentz now has a pattern in consecutive years of being hurt come December football. These are massive considerations, and when you take into account that Foles won the team their only Lombardi and that there is absolutely NO PROOF that Wentz could have performed in the playoffs and outplayed Brady and won the Super Bowl, and Foles could potentially get the same roster into the playoffs that Wentz struggled to win games with this year-------->>>>>>>

This is so much deeper than looking at "which guy is better" or "which guy has the higher ceiling". The ultimate measure of a QB in the NFL is does he win? The hard truth is Wentz hasnt shown himself to be more of a winner or a better leader for the Eagles than Foles. That's a serious problem!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-27-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,799 posts, read 2,391,338 times
Reputation: 2650
Can the Eagles keep both? Didn’t Foles say after the Super Bowl he was content as a backup? I’d lean to keeping Wentz if you have to pick one or the other. Some team will give way too much for Foles like Texans did with Brock O. Sell while he’s hot!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Pro Football
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top