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Old 02-09-2010, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,747,266 times
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I just looked it up and found that their are 19 NFL teams that have an all-time playoff record below .500.

There are also 12 NFL teams that have never even won 9 playoff games in their entire history including teams that have been around since the NFL was formed.

So, you can bash Peyton's playoff record all you want but he has a record that has a better winning percentage than a majority of NFL teams and he has won more playoff games in his 12 years in the league than many franchises that have been around for nearly 50 years!
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
9,369 posts, read 18,016,290 times
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Dan Marino never won a ring, and I'd say he's a better QB than both Manning and Brady. Terry Bradshaw has four SB rings, and he's nowhere near as good as guys like Marino or Dan Fouts who never won a SB. Joe Theismann won a ring but he's not as good as Elway or Warner in my opinion. It's all about your supporting cast, and defense plays a big part of that. Guys like Bradshaw, Brady, Montana, and Aikman had all star casts with great defenses, receivers, solid running games and great offensive lines. There were many a game Manning put up spectacular numbers and scored over 30 points for the offense, but the defense couldn't hold the opposition down. I don't define a QB's greatness by how many rings he has, you have to factor in all the tangibles.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:08 PM
 
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Brady had all star casts??? Really.

He won in 01 with guys like David Patten, David Givens, Troy Brown ( playing corner), Kevin Faulk, JR Redmon, and his first SB with a defense ranked 24th vs the pass and 19th vs the run? Thats an all star cast? Aside from Brady they sent Milloy and Law to the Pro Bowl with Brown as an alternate. Hardly an ALL STAR CAST.

In 03 they had the 12 Ranked offense in football, sent only 3 players to the probowl that were on defense.

I think people remember 07 with Moss and Brady and think he has had all stars around him his whole time in New England, which is far from the truth. This wasnt the cowboys of the 90's that sent the entire oline to the probowl along with emmit, troy, irvin, novachek and half the defense. Or those stacked 49er teams either.

As far as Marino goes, I wouldnt even say he's better then Elway.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,363,957 times
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Can people just stop overrating post season wins and rings?

Easiest way to look at it, if Manning was 10-8 with 2 rings, would anybody be talking like that is a negative stain on his resume? No, but since he is 9-9 with 1 ring, people are acting like that is such a bad thing.

What you are saying at that point is 1 game can act as a tipping point on an 11+ year career.

And Elway is not even in the discussion for the GOAT.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
9,369 posts, read 18,016,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedaddicted View Post
Brady had all star casts??? Really.

He won in 01 with guys like David Patten, David Givens, Troy Brown ( playing corner), Kevin Faulk, JR Redmon, and his first SB with a defense ranked 24th vs the pass and 19th vs the run? Thats an all star cast? Aside from Brady they sent Milloy and Law to the Pro Bowl with Brown as an alternate. Hardly an ALL STAR CAST.

In 03 they had the 12 Ranked offense in football, sent only 3 players to the probowl that were on defense.

I think people remember 07 with Moss and Brady and think he has had all stars around him his whole time in New England, which is far from the truth. This wasnt the cowboys of the 90's that sent the entire oline to the probowl along with emmit, troy, irvin, novachek and half the defense. Or those stacked 49er teams either.

As far as Marino goes, I wouldnt even say he's better then Elway.
Games are won and lost on the line...how many times was Brady sacked or knocked down against Carolina, Philadelphia and St. Louis during the Superbowl? How many times was he sacked and knocked down against the Giants...there's the difference. Brady had great protection in his SB wins, never got touched against Philly which had the best defense in the league. He had guys like Vrabel and Harrison on defense which made his job much easier, not to mention the best kicker in the league who was the difference in all their wins, all of which were by three points.

Let's not forget Brady has been prospering in the one of the weakest divisions in the league for most of his career. I still think he's a great QB, but he's also been fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

Marino did more with less, more than any other QB in the league. The guy had a quick release, dead on accurate, and had a no name offense with adequate receivers and no running game to take some of the heat off of him. His offensive line was mediocre for most of his career as well. Yet he put up ridiculous numbers...had he been gifted with the supporting cast of Montana or Aikman he'd have set untouchable records, Favre would have to play until he's collecting social security to catch up to him.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, California
62 posts, read 126,323 times
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I think it is safe to declare him as the greatest regular season QB ever. When you storm off the field without shaking hands (or call out your O-line following a playoff loss), you better have some Joe Montana-caliber playoff runs under your belt, and he doesn't. That kind of stuff magnifies your losses.

Yes, it is silly that losing one game can take you from the conversation of being the "greatest QB ever" to being the "great choke artist ever", but I think he is quite far from either. Whatever monkey he took of his back in 2007 is back on, and he was CLEARLY outplayed by another peer quarterback.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Back in the gym...Yo Adrian!
9,369 posts, read 18,016,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonLumbergh View Post
I think it is safe to declare him as the greatest regular season QB ever. When you storm off the field without shaking hands (or call out your O-line following a playoff loss), you better have some Joe Montana-caliber playoff runs under your belt, and he doesn't. That kind of stuff magnifies your losses.

Yes, it is silly that losing one game can take you from the conversation of being the "greatest QB ever" to being the "great choke artist ever", but I think he is quite far from either. Whatever monkey he took of his back in 2007 is back on, and he was CLEARLY outplayed by another peer quarterback.
Totally agree! He went from hero to zero over one interception. I wasn't a big fan of his lack of sportsmanship, he should have shook Brees' hand. He's got plenty of good years ahead of him, and it's not as though the AFC teams are going to improve all that much in one or two seasons, so Indy has a good shot at going to the Superbowl at least one more time in his career.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:25 PM
 
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At least Manning won't threaten to retire until the Colts beg him enough times to re-consider.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:36 PM
 
2,221 posts, read 3,187,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolhand68 View Post
Games are won and lost on the line...how many times was Brady sacked or knocked down against Carolina, Philadelphia and St. Louis during the Superbowl? How many times was he sacked and knocked down against the Giants...there's the difference. Brady had great protection in his SB wins, never got touched against Philly which had the best defense in the league. He had guys like Vrabel and Harrison on defense which made his job much easier, not to mention the best kicker in the league who was the difference in all their wins, all of which were by three points.

Let's not forget Brady has been prospering in the one of the weakest divisions in the league for most of his career. I still think he's a great QB, but he's also been fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

Marino did more with less, more than any other QB in the league. The guy had a quick release, dead on accurate, and had a no name offense with adequate receivers and no running game to take some of the heat off of him. His offensive line was mediocre for most of his career as well. Yet he put up ridiculous numbers...had he been gifted with the supporting cast of Montana or Aikman he'd have set untouchable records, Favre would have to play until he's collecting social security to catch up to him.
I agree Marino statistically was a phenom, but he has nothing to show for his greatness.

Do you know why Brady was "never touched" in those games? Part of it was a decent O-line but the other half is HIS ABILITY to read the defense and check to dumps and screens to avoid the rush. Hell in 01 we threw more screens than anyone in the league. Hard to sack a guy who just plants and throws.

I love how folks talk about how great our defense was but they fail to remember these were mostly guys nobody wanted because they couldnt play. Vrabel was a Pitts cast off, Brian Cox, Roman Phifer, Tebucky Jones, Otis Smith, Hell Rodny Harrison was cut by the Chargers because he "didnt have anything left in the tank" They played excellent team ball this is a given, but they were far from an all star cast as you so described.
In his time in New England prior to Moss and Welker Brady has had 2 seasons with a 100 yard back. 1 from Corey Dillion and Antawon Smith. 100 yard recievers???? Troy Brown in 01. Hardly a Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Eddgerin James, Dallas Clark, Marshall Faulk cast.

Look I am not saying Peyton is a bum, but he gets waaay more glory than he has earn when it come to greatness.
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:23 PM
 
16,527 posts, read 20,975,025 times
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Dan Marino and John Elway's tenure in the league was nearly identical; Elway 1983-1998, Marino 1983-1999. Elway in the first 10 years of his career had only average talent to work with on offense with names like Sammy Winder at rb, Vance Johnson and Mark Jackson at wr, Clarence Kay at te.

Marino fared better at wide receiver with the "Marks" brothers (Duper and Clayton). They were no Jerry Rice by any stretch, but there were a pro bowl appearance or two by them anyway. They BOTH were named all-pro in 1984, the year Miami went to the Super Bowl. Joe Rose at tight end was an ok fit, but no pro bowler.

I'd have to look up Marino's stats to see where he is at regarding getting sacked, but I can tell you who had the most sacks in his career and it's a runaway! John Elway takes the prize there with 514 sacks in his career. EDIT_just looked it up, Marino was sacked 270 times in his career.

Having that supporting cast is OH so important! Elway didn't have that great threat in the backfield until Terrell Davis came along in Elway's last few seasons of his career. Having HOFer Gary Zimmerman helped keep Elway upright, as he was easily the best left tackle in the game at that time. And then in the tail end of his career he had Shannon Sharpe, Rod Smith, and Eddie McCaffrey to throw the ball to.

Coolhand68 comes in with good facts regarding Dan Marino. Marino didn't have the luxury of a 2000 yard rusher in the backfield like Elway did. In fact, the only running back I remember the Dolphins having that sported a 1000 yard season was Abdul-Karim Al Jabbar in 1996. I WILL do some digging later tonight to see if there were any other running backs during Dan's career that went for 1000 yards.

What helped Dan physically was two things; quick feet and the fastest delivery of a ball I had seen since Joe Namath. Dan's foot movement avoided a lot of sacks as he did not have the physical ability to get out of the pocket like an Elway could. As far as THAT goes, few quarterbacks did. But like Elway, he had a GREAT arm. And he was a GREAT field general.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 02-09-2010 at 06:50 PM..
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