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Old 03-29-2010, 05:52 AM
 
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Lots of good points to both sides of this argument. I guess the question I have is that Sherriff Goddell has made it clear that you dont have to be charged with a crime or found guilty of one to fall under the league conduct policy and in Ben's case he hasnt done much at all. Like he said before its about protecting the "NFL SHIELD" and IMO Ben is doing a **** poor job of that. But in fairness he also hasnt been charged with a crime either so what to do?
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Old 03-29-2010, 07:00 AM
 
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Speedaddicted is right. He still hasn't been charged. But the commish IS watching this situation!
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,743,505 times
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Pacman and Vick were charged and convicted of crimes. Ben hasnt even been charged. I do believe that Big Ben needs to meet with the commish though so they can discuss these issues. Having two assault accusations cannot be a coincidence. Even if Ben did not do anything wrong, he needs to be talked to about putting himself in these positions.
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh--Home of the 6 time Super Bowl Champions!
11,309 posts, read 11,176,885 times
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I don't like that the race card is being played here. With Vick and Pacman there was definite proof of their wrongdoings. There is NO proof yet that Ben did anything criminal. The first accusation was bogus--they have her friends even saying how she wanted to sleep with him.

I do agree that Ben needs spoken to and needs to stop putting himself in these precarious positions. His NFL career could be in the toilet if he continues to act this way.

BTW, for those of you who are calling him a rapist using his name--that is defamation of character! (He has NOT been CHARGED with rape or CONVICTED of rape) If his lawyers were to see that..... Just sayin...
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:04 PM
 
2,221 posts, read 3,186,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasGirl@Heart View Post
I don't like that the race card is being played here. With Vick and Pacman there was definite proof of their wrongdoings. There is NO proof yet that Ben did anything criminal. The first accusation was bogus--they have her friends even saying how she wanted to sleep with him.

I do agree that Ben needs spoken to and needs to stop putting himself in these precarious positions. His NFL career could be in the toilet if he continues to act this way.

BTW, for those of you who are calling him a rapist using his name--that is defamation of character! (He has NOT been CHARGED with rape or CONVICTED of rape) If his lawyers were to see that..... Just sayin...

I tend to agree with you that the 1st case was bogus;HOWEVER, you have zero evidence that Ben has done nothing criminal. No one but Ben and that girl know exactly what happened in that club. I have a feeling that if this was another QB and not one of your team you wouldnt be so forgiving.

In regards to Vick and PacMan, when they were suspended neither one had been convicted and neither had Chris Henry. In 08 Rocky Bernard was suspeneded 1 game for a domestic violence incident that he was never convicted of. Hell Oakland Head Coach Cable assaulted a staff member breaking his jaw and got nothing. I'm very confused as to how the commish delves out his punishments.

I do think Ben gets preferential treatment but I'm not sure is based on race. When the 1st incident happened ESPN wouldnt even report the story at first. They ducked it and only after the commish mad a comment about it did the acknolwdege it. That was very suspect because had that been Vick, or Pacman or hell Randy Moss they would have been and have been the 1st to report it!
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:53 PM
 
2,653 posts, read 4,721,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedaddicted View Post
I tend to agree with you that the 1st case was bogus;HOWEVER, you have zero evidence that Ben has done nothing criminal. No one but Ben and that girl know exactly what happened in that club. I have a feeling that if this was another QB and not one of your team you wouldnt be so forgiving.

In regards to Vick and PacMan, when they were suspended neither one had been convicted and neither had Chris Henry. In 08 Rocky Bernard was suspeneded 1 game for a domestic violence incident that he was never convicted of. Hell Oakland Head Coach Cable assaulted a staff member breaking his jaw and got nothing. I'm very confused as to how the commish delves out his punishments.

I do think Ben gets preferential treatment but I'm not sure is based on race. When the 1st incident happened ESPN wouldnt even report the story at first. They ducked it and only after the commish mad a comment about it did the acknolwdege it. That was very suspect because had that been Vick, or Pacman or hell Randy Moss they would have been and have been the 1st to report it!
"Zero evidence he did nothing criminal" ?????

You can not prove a negative - that something did not happen. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. Nobody ever has to "prove they did nothing wrong"

Secondly, the Tahoe incident is a civil matter, not a criminal one. Despite the incendiary & sexual nature of the charges, I don't believe the NFL inserts itself in civil matters between players and other parties.

Comparing the Vick & PacMan cases to Ben's and claiming the only difference in the accused players race is disingenuous at least. Ben's case is he said she said. Vick may not have been convicted at the time he was disciplined, but his indictment was following an extensive investigation by law enforcement that resulted in a mountain of evidence. Pacman was a frequent troublemaker. Apples and Oranges.

Might Ben's case warrant discipline - criminal conviction or not? Maybe. Should he have already been punished? No.

Lastly - what's the rush?? Kickoff weekend is, what, 5+ months away? Use the time between now and when any discipline would matter (i.e. when games are actually being played) to investigate, then make a decision
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,361,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Investor2 View Post
Nobody ever has to "prove they did nothing wrong"
What? I agree that everyone should holster their pitchforks when it comes to Ben for now, but, what? People constantly are going to court to prove they did nothing wrong, someone who is fighting a traffic ticket, the burden is on them to prove they are innocent. Isn't a criminal defenders job defined as, proving people innocent? It's not like they just kick back with their feet up while the prosecuting attorney tries to prove them guilty. And why can't you prove a negative, someone accuses me of robbing a liquor store, the security cameras shows someone else doing it, doesn't that prove the negative that I was not there as my accuser suggests?
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh--Home of the 6 time Super Bowl Champions!
11,309 posts, read 11,176,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
What? I agree that everyone should holster their pitchforks when it comes to Ben for now, but, what? People constantly are going to court to prove they did nothing wrong, someone who is fighting a traffic ticket, the burden is on them to prove they are innocent. Isn't a criminal defenders job defined as, proving people innocent? It's not like they just kick back with their feet up while the prosecuting attorney tries to prove them guilty. And why can't you prove a negative, someone accuses me of robbing a liquor store, the security cameras shows someone else doing it, doesn't that prove the negative that I was not there as my accuser suggests?
WRONG, WRONG, AND WRONG AGAIN! In a court of law you are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY! It is up to the prosecuting team to PROVE you are GUILTY!. The defense team is there to defend against unfounded accusations. They shoot holes, so to speak, through the accusers story. The accuser has to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that the person is guilty!

Look at the OJ Simpson case....the defense sat there and shot holes in the story!! Remember the "the gloves don't fit, so you must acquit!" ---shooting holes in the prosecutor's story.

Again, I caution those who are already calling him a rapist in a PUBLIC FORUM!! His lawyer could have a good ole time with your statements!! All it takes is for ONE person to forward those onto the Pittsburgh Steeler organization or to Ben.
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:47 PM
 
2,653 posts, read 4,721,799 times
Reputation: 1904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
What? I agree that everyone should holster their pitchforks when it comes to Ben for now, but, what? People constantly are going to court to prove they did nothing wrong, someone who is fighting a traffic ticket, the burden is on them to prove they are innocent. Isn't a criminal defenders job defined as, proving people innocent? It's not like they just kick back with their feet up while the prosecuting attorney tries to prove them guilty. And why can't you prove a negative, someone accuses me of robbing a liquor store, the security cameras shows someone else doing it, doesn't that prove the negative that I was not there as my accuser suggests?
I don't even know where to begin with this.

A defendant in a criminal matter NEVER has to prove he is not guilty - it is up to the prosecutor to PROVE the defendant is guilty. If the prosecutor cannot meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant does not have to say a word to win. The only to verdicts in a completed trial are "Guilty" & "Not Guilty". There is no verdict of "Innocent" because innocence is not an issue, only guilt.
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,361,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC Investor2 View Post
I don't even know where to begin with this.

A defendant in a criminal matter NEVER has to prove he is not guilty - it is up to the prosecutor to PROVE the defendant is guilty. If the prosecutor cannot meet the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant does not have to say a word to win. The only to verdicts in a completed trial are "Guilty" & "Not Guilty". There is no verdict of "Innocent" because innocence is not an issue, only guilt.
Innoncent until proven guilty, I get it. I'm just saying if you are taking to court in a criminal manner, doesnt the defendent usually present evidence to illustrate his "not guilty-ness" (I won't use the word innocent, as it appears to upset you).

In the case Big Ben, I am sure in court (if it goes there) they will present evidence that she is a crazy-slutty girl with a drinking problem who is prone to lying. But they don't do that to prove innocence, they do it to prove, "not guilty-ness"
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