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Old 08-01-2012, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,990 posts, read 5,057,626 times
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I think that the worst part about unforgiveness is when people hang onto the "bitterness". Also, for some people, it can cause them to mistrust everyone around them, because one person hurt or abused them. Obviously, there are lessons to be learned from those who wronged us, but not everyone is going to do so.

As for your brother, Escapegoat, it's understandable that your brother would seek forgiveness for your mother, after all, she's been his savior (he thinks), so it must be YOUR fault that you two don't get along. LOL Again, your story sounds sooooo familiar. I get it...on such a personal level.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
I think that the worst part about unforgiveness is when people hang onto the "bitterness". Also, for some people, it can cause them to mistrust everyone around them, because one person hurt or abused them. Obviously, there are lessons to be learned from those who wronged us, but not everyone is going to do so.

As for your brother, Escapegoat, it's understandable that your brother would seek forgiveness for your mother, after all, she's been his savior (he thinks), so it must be YOUR fault that you two don't get along. LOL Again, your story sounds sooooo familiar. I get it...on such a personal level.

if someone developes a cynical attitude to the world due to having been abused by a particular individual , then that is how it is , you cannot force yourself to feel differently , some experiences leave feelings which run deep and some of us cannot lie to ourselves and pretend it was not really that bad

i myself had two choices following my experience , suicide or depression and sadness , i did not have the guts to kill myself so i must live with bitter regret , i cant really complain , i made my choice , what i dont accept however is that i had a choice not to let this experience effect me , like i said on another thread , if someone stabs me in the eye , i cannot choose not to wear a scar , it remains whether i like it or not
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
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Yes, but couldn't your actions be considered something like "passive-aggressive emotional abuse"? If an individual hurt you, but you end up withholding yourself from everyone else, that's like holding everyone else responsible for your pain. That's emotionally abusing/withholding affection or social interaction, from everyone....all because ONE person did something to you. Why would you want to hurt others?

IB...we all have scars, every single one of us, the difference is, some of don't continue to rub those scars. That's like smashing your finger, then squeezing it constantly to see if it still hurts.
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:43 AM
 
679 posts, read 430,726 times
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I don't think withdrawing is necessarily abusing others. There are about 3 different ways most people handle abuse:

1) passing it on to someone else. That is defintely wrong. An example would be a parent is abused as a child so abuses his or her own child.

2) overcoming it, with or without forgivenss. This is admirable

3) struggling with it, with or without forgiveness. This can be a temporary stage on the way to overcome it, but for some people, this becomes permanent. If they aren't harming/hurting others, then I don't think we can really judge the person who was abused. Even for those who manage to overcome it, it doesn't happen overnight for most people.

Let's go back to the crowbar example I used.

1) If the person who's leg was broken by the crowbar wielder went on to wield crowbars at innocent people, that's passing it on to others and it's wrong.

2) The leg may heal and maybe the person gets physical therapy and recovers full use of the leg. And is ok being around crowbars as long as the person who wielded the crowbar isn't around

3) The person still walks with a limp and is wary of crowbars in general even if the person who wielded it at them isn't around

I don't think 3 would be an unreasonable reaction and the crow bar wielder would be at fault, not the injured person
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Yes, but couldn't your actions be considered something like "passive-aggressive emotional abuse"? If an individual hurt you, but you end up withholding yourself from everyone else, that's like holding everyone else responsible for your pain. That's emotionally abusing/withholding affection or social interaction, from everyone....all because ONE person did something to you. Why would you want to hurt others?

IB...we all have scars, every single one of us, the difference is, some of don't continue to rub those scars. That's like smashing your finger, then squeezing it constantly to see if it still hurts.
banal psychobabble , you are 100% wrong that everyone has scars , most people do not have scars , a scar is something that you are reminded of several times per day , everyday of your life , its very different from one of lifes disapointments , your allegation of how witholding oneself from other is itself a form of abuse is yet another example of victim blaming

Last edited by irish_bob; 08-02-2012 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,990 posts, read 5,057,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
banal psychobabble , you are 100% wrong that everyone has scars , most people do not have scars , a scar is something that you are reminded of several times per day , everyday of your life , its very different from one of lifes disapointments , your allegation of how witholding oneself from other is itself a form of abuse is yet another example of victim blaming
No, you're wrong. Pretty much everyone has scars. They might not have exactly the same scars that you have....but they still have them. You might think that what others have gone through, is simply one of "life's disappointments", but who are you to judge? IMHO, it's always much healthier, mentally, to look around you and see what horrors others have suffered.

When you wall yourself off from others, bury yourself in constant misery and self-pity, it's pretty easy to overlook the fact that others have scars as well. Of course, if you're simply hell bent on proclaiming how much deeper and worse your scars are than others' scars, you never see others' pain...because you minimize it.

As for your comment on "how witholding oneself from others........", meh...you seem to be quite stuck on that old victim blaming nonsense. Hey, whatever floats your boat. If you choose to be miserable and relive the past constantly, it's just that...your choice. However, if you use your "scars" as an excuse to make others miserable, yes...you become an abuser. It might not be exactly the same abuse, but it's abuse just the same.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,990 posts, read 5,057,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exscapegoat View Post
I don't think withdrawing is necessarily abusing others. There are about 3 different ways most people handle abuse:

1) passing it on to someone else. That is defintely wrong. An example would be a parent is abused as a child so abuses his or her own child.

2) overcoming it, with or without forgivenss. This is admirable

3) struggling with it, with or without forgiveness. This can be a temporary stage on the way to overcome it, but for some people, this becomes permanent. If they aren't harming/hurting others, then I don't think we can really judge the person who was abused. Even for those who manage to overcome it, it doesn't happen overnight for most people.

Let's go back to the crowbar example I used.

1) If the person who's leg was broken by the crowbar wielder went on to wield crowbars at innocent people, that's passing it on to others and it's wrong.

2) The leg may heal and maybe the person gets physical therapy and recovers full use of the leg. And is ok being around crowbars as long as the person who wielded the crowbar isn't around

3) The person still walks with a limp and is wary of crowbars in general even if the person who wielded it at them isn't around

I don't think 3 would be an unreasonable reaction and the crow bar wielder would be at fault, not the injured person
Yes, but don't you think it's unfair to "assume" that anyone who has a crowbar, is going to hit you with it? That's the point I'm trying to make. It's unfair to completely mistrust others, just because one person hurt you.

On a personal level, that's just as ridiculous and unfair as mistrusting someone because of their last name. I watched my kids suffer at times because of their last name. My husband has some unsavory characters in his family. They have children who are older than my kids and those kids have some pretty serious issues. We have had to console our children, because parents told their children to stay away from them....because "Those _______ people are crazy, trouble, screwed up." Those people made those comments out of ignorance. If they were intelligent, rather than paranoid and mistrustful, they would have known that my children were kept away from those family members, raised in a kind, gentle, orderly, Christian family....totally opposite their cousins lifestyles.
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Old 08-03-2012, 12:50 PM
 
679 posts, read 430,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Yes, but don't you think it's unfair to "assume" that anyone who has a crowbar, is going to hit you with it? That's the point I'm trying to make. It's unfair to completely mistrust others, just because one person hurt you.
Don't you think it's unfair that the victim got hit with a crowbar in the first place? Life's not fair, unfortunately. Part of trauma reaction is that our survival instincts imprint the circumstances of threatening circumstances as a survival mechanism. It will take some people longer than others to become desesnsitized to triggers. Some never will. If the victim were taking pre-emptive strikes at innocent people with crowbars, by say stabbing them, then yes, that would be wrong. But if they're just feeling wary, that's neither right nor wrong, it's just a feeling. I think it we are going to judge or blame anyone, it should be the perp who broke the victim's leg with a crowbar, not the victim who may be struggling to heal & recover from the break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
On a personal level, that's just as ridiculous and unfair as mistrusting someone because of their last name. I watched my kids suffer at times because of their last name. My husband has some unsavory characters in his family. They have children who are older than my kids and those kids have some pretty serious issues. We have had to console our children, because parents told their children to stay away from them....because "Those _______ people are crazy, trouble, screwed up." Those people made those comments out of ignorance. If they were intelligent, rather than paranoid and mistrustful, they would have known that my children were kept away from those family members, raised in a kind, gentle, orderly, Christian family....totally opposite their cousins lifestyles.
Actually, that analogy isn't exact. What would be closer is if a victim of the unsavory characters avoided your immediate family (you, spouse & kids). And even then, while that wouldn't be fair, it would be understandable if the people didn't know you didn't associate with the unsavory characters. Unless I'm misreading, people who haven't been victimized are shunning your immediate family for the actions of your husband's extended family, correct? So in that case, people who haven't been victimized are choosing to judge you, which is probably more out of gossip/shunning than genuine fear or concern for their well being. That's an entirely different matter.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:19 PM
 
4,778 posts, read 2,811,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
No, you're wrong. Pretty much everyone has scars. They might not have exactly the same scars that you have....but they still have them. You might think that what others have gone through, is simply one of "life's disappointments", but who are you to judge? IMHO, it's always much healthier, mentally, to look around you and see what horrors others have suffered.

When you wall yourself off from others, bury yourself in constant misery and self-pity, it's pretty easy to overlook the fact that others have scars as well. Of course, if you're simply hell bent on proclaiming how much deeper and worse your scars are than others' scars, you never see others' pain...because you minimize it.

As for your comment on "how witholding oneself from others........", meh...you seem to be quite stuck on that old victim blaming nonsense. Hey, whatever floats your boat. If you choose to be miserable and relive the past constantly, it's just that...your choice. However, if you use your "scars" as an excuse to make others miserable, yes...you become an abuser. It might not be exactly the same abuse, but it's abuse just the same.

you just cant stop vomiting up the cliches , can you

i never said other people dont have scars but i dont believe most people have scars , i had no scars prior to a life changing experience , thats not to say i had no obstacles to deal with but that is very different from a scar , if everyone had scars , the entire world would be a complete and utter basket case , unable to function , saying everyone has scars is about as idiotic as saying everyone was treated like crap by thier parents growing up or everyone who ever went to school was bullied, its a broad brush statement , lacking in subtlety and common sense

as for this crap about my chosing to be miserable , no one chooses to be miserable , thats like saying someone chooses to feel pain if they loose a toe , your contempt for victims is obnoxious in the exrtreme

you know nothing

Last edited by irish_bob; 08-03-2012 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
7,990 posts, read 5,057,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
you just cant stop vomiting up the cliches , can you

i never said other people dont have scars but i dont believe most people have scars , i had no scars prior to a life changing experience , thats not to say i had no obstacles to deal with but that is very different from a scar , if everyone had scars , the entire world would be a complete and utter basket case , unable to function , saying everyone has scars is about as idiotic as saying everyone was treated like crap by thier parents growing up or everyone who ever went to school was bullied, its a broad brush statement , lacking in subtlety and common sense

as for this crap about my chosing to be miserable , no one chooses to be miserable , thats like saying someone chooses to feel pain if they loose a toe , your contempt for victims is obnoxious in the exrtreme

you know nothing
I know that you're angry and lashing out.....as well as blind to the pain of those around you. Of course, you have to get close to people in order to find out what kind of scars they bear. I'm quite sure people who do talk to you, simply try to avoid the subject altogether, considering your habit of getting hysterical and defensive.
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