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I'm sorry but I feel compelled to respond again!!!
SOME people get dragged/forced/encouraged to AA "kicking and screaming". SOME people become addicted to AA using it as a vice in and of itself.
And maybe some alcholics do drink quality products. What I mainly meant is when an alcoholic is 'possessed' by the 'phenomenon of craving' or 'craving' or 'compulsion' to drink, they will drink anything! I've heard of some even drinking mouthwash and rubbing alcohol (the latter I think must be a cry for help or way of getting attention, unless the person is really uneducated/stupid). And unrelated to what I just said, but personally, I don't know why anybody would drink clear liquors straight. To me, those are meant for mixed drinks and even then I'm not sure I care for any of them.
I agree that it doesn't necessarily help for family or friends to try to control somebody's drinking - and for a number of reasons.
As for what you said about yourself, it does sound like you abused alcohol. Like you were obsessed with drinking, drugging, and getting outside of yourself through such means.
Have any of you personally gotten past the 'phenomenon of craving' problem and moderated your drinking? Or do you know somebody who you've observed do so successfully?
I don't mean drinking successfully a few times in a row and then losing it and binging or otherwise drinking heavily, but rather having gone from drinking alcoholically and being driven by the 'phenomenon of craving', to being able to 'take it or leave it', not drink every single day, and not binging when you do drink.
I understand that AA and other outlets preach total abstinence and that an alcoholic can never drink safely again, but let's be open minded. If you're an alcoholic and you've decided you can never safely drink again, so be it. Do what works for you. But for the sake of this thread, let's be open minded.
No. You are confusing alcoholism with alcohol abuse. They are completely different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda
that sounds about right, quite like the AA philosophy.
avoiding bars must be quite high on the list, and staying in at night etc..
I find the smell of beer should be avoided as well
Few alcoholics drink beer. Vodka is the drink of choice for an alcoholic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOKAN
Well, there are folks who rationalize drinking too much, but then there are folks who can do the opposite of that too. Never more than one (or less than one) drink in any given day isn't realistic for normal drinkers. Perhaps if the person isn't a drinker, but is specifically having a glass of red wine per day for the resveratrol and any other supposed health benefits, then I find it likely the the amount you suggest is recommended. However, don't confuse studies that are focused on finding the ideal amount of drinking for supposed health benefits with studies that provide guidelines for what's considered a healthy range of drinking for people who simply enjoy drink. For the latter and from my gathering of the multiple American studies I've read, between 2-4 standard drinks per day for men and about half that for women (5 ounces of wine, 12 ounces of beer, 1.5 ounces of 80-proof liquor) up to 5 days per week is within the healthy range. I've heard European studies are more liberal. Thus I've personally concluded that up to a bottle of wine, a six pack of beer, or roughly a third of a bottle of 80-proof liquor - all of which have about the same amount of alcohol content - is on the heavier side of the healthy drinking range. However, I think somebody who drinks that maximum amount everyday or everytime they drink - they are likely on the verge of a problem. If one is actively/constantly thinking about how much they are drinking - they are likely on the verge of a problem.
Alcohol is alcohol, but I think what somebody reaches for to drink may say something about them. Somebody who just wants to get blitzed may reach for cheap crap. There's the factor of "why would they drink that? The stuff is like hairspray!" Well, the answer is they just want to get drunk.
Much of what this discussion is talking about is alcohol abuse. I'm not trying to downplay alcohol abuse since it is a serious problem and many people die from it. All alcoholics will die an early death unless except for the few who go into recovery.
Signs of an alcoholic:
* they will lie about their drinking.
* they will consume amounts of alcohol they would kill normal people.
* they will buy vodka in 1.75L bottles and hide the bottles and the empties.
* they will typically not drink every day once the binges become destructive.
* The binges will last several days, usually with blackouts and no food.
* Alcoholics can go days, weeks, months and even years without drinking but most eventually drink again.
* Most alcoholics also suffer from depression and this also has to be treated.
Most 28-day treatments programs don't work; that is why insurance companies now only pay for 14-day programs. For an alcoholic to stop drinking they need a strong support program and a strong will power. They can't become a social drinker. Alcohol has a different effect on them. If you know someone that you think has gone from an alcoholic to a social drinker, they they were not an alcoholic to begin with. they were someone who had an alcohol abuse problem.
how long do you all think one should go to AA for? (after getting sober)
Are you asking me? I think how long a person needs to go to AA depends on the person. Some people may see clearly that alcohol is a problem in their life, 'get it' in short order, fade out of AA rather quickly, and be fine for the rest of their life. Some may need to go to AA for life, which is likely true for somebody like villageidiot1 described above. THAT is severe.
SOME people get dragged/forced/encouraged to AA "kicking and screaming". SOME people become addicted to AA using it as a vice in and of itself. I mentioned that in one of my posts, so I agree. Anything that one depends on could become a vice, a crutch, etc. However, there are healthy crutches, as long as it isn't taken to the extreme. If it saves one's life, then who is to judge whether it is a crutch or not?
And maybe some alcholics do drink quality products. What I mainly meant is when an alcoholic is 'possessed' by the 'phenomenon of craving' or 'craving' or 'compulsion' to drink, they will drink anything!
I agree with the idea of possession from a religious perspective. That is one of the reasons why many people have such difficulty with the 12 steps, because it came from the Oxford Group, a religious group who Bill W & the early founders were involved with before AA came into being. One could even consider alcoholism to be a sin, as do the christian 12 steppers.
I've heard of some even drinking mouthwash and rubbing alcohol (the latter I think must be a cry for help or way of getting attention, unless the person is really uneducated/stupid). Yep, some have been known to do this, strictly for the alcohol content. They are desperate. They are willing to do anything for their fix.
And unrelated to what I just said, but personally, I don't know why anybody would drink clear liquors straight. To me, those are meant for mixed drinks and even then I'm not sure I care for any of them. I didn't have a problem with drinking hard booze straight. It does do the job quicker. It only a matter of being able to handle it. Historically, moonshiners did not mix their booze, it was drank straight up. One does not have to be alcoholic to drink it this way.
As for what you said about yourself, it does sound like you abused alcohol. Like you were obsessed with drinking, drugging, and getting outside of yourself through such means.
No not just abuse.
Ok, I'm curious, why are you so interested in this subject again? I forgot. One thing I have found over the years, is that nonalcoholics are virtually unable to understand alcoholics. Oh yeah, you can discuss the pros & cons, and this theory or that one, but unless you've been in my shoes, or affected by the disease, it is rare for a nonalcoholic to understand. So sorry I did not explain things from the perspective of craving, that you understood...It was quite clear to me. As it would be to any other sober alcoholic. I don't need your approval to agree with me. I most definitely am/was an alcoholic.
It might help your understanding to actually read AA's Big Book & the 12 Steps. It talks about all your questions, and is backed up by outside sources.
never. its a 12 step thing. u gota admit u have an issue before u can begin to turn it around. u cant be just a little crazy once and awhile
u got to get out of the crazy biz, like yesterday and stay out.
drunks dont have a lil drink
they suck down the entire bottle and all at once and go lookin for another.
Are you asking me? I think how long a person needs to go to AA depends on the person. Some people may see clearly that alcohol is a problem in their life, 'get it' in short order, fade out of AA rather quickly, and be fine for the rest of their life. Some may need to go to AA for life, which is likely true for somebody like villageidiot1 described above. THAT is severe.
I knew this one guy who frequented this one diner often for lunch. He was clearly past retirement age. He spoke to me a few times and started telling me about his life. I learned that he was a devout Catholic - going to a lot of church related functions, which is not a bad thing. I learned that he was also in AA. He talked about how many different meetings he went to, and then to all the personal functions of these people (weddings, funerals, etc.), almost as if it supplied his social life. He told me he had been sober for a quarter of a century. I really thought that he didn't need to go, but went anyway.
Few alcoholics drink beer. Vodka is the drink of choice for an alcoholic. -- NOT true!!! that is a common misconception. The alcohol content is fairly equal between a beer, a shot & a glass of wine. The exception would be certain types of higher alcohol content booze, one that comes to mind is everclear.
Much of what this discussion is talking about is alcohol abuse. I'm not trying to downplay alcohol abuse since it is a serious problem and many people die from it. All alcoholics will die an early death unless except for the few who go into recovery. The recovery rate is very, very small. I can't remember exactly, but I believe it is less than 10%. and maybe even less.
Signs of an alcoholic:
* they will lie about their drinking - yes, did that
* they will consume amounts of alcohol they would kill normal people - yes, did that
* they will buy vodka (any booze) in 1.75L bottles (or bigger) and hide the bottles and the empties- no need to hide the booze, I either lived alone or with people who drank as much as I did. Hiding was only for purposes of hiding my stash from the other alcoholics.
* they will typically not drink every day once the binges become destructive - it depends on the individual, my ex was a daily drinker, I only drank daily on vacation!
* The binges will last several days, usually with blackouts and no food - I passed out, never blacked out. I binged through my days off. My ex was a black out drinker. Food interferes with the buzz, so agreed, very little food
* Alcoholics can go days, weeks, months and even years without drinking but most eventually drink again - I had one relapse but have not had a drink since, 23+ years.
* Most alcoholics also suffer from depression and this also has to be treated - agreed, I did.
I agree with most of these points as noted.
Most 28-day treatments programs don't work; that is why insurance companies now only pay for 14-day programs.
Insurers pay for 28 day (or longer) residential programs usually under the mental health benefit. If a person was hospitalized for acute detox and there was an associated medical diagnosis, such as heart palpitations, or anything, then coverage would be under the medical benefit, until the person was stabilized and discharged. There is no significant difference in recovery rates between those who do inpatient/residential treatment programs, vs outpatient treatment programs vs AA.
For an alcoholic to stop drinking they need a strong support program and a strong will power (disagree with the willpower aspect). They can't become a social drinker. Alcohol has a different effect on them. If you know someone that you think has gone from an alcoholic to a social drinker, they they were not an alcoholic to begin with. they were someone who had an alcohol abuse problem. Totally agree with you!
NOT true!!! that is a common misconception. The alcohol content is fairly equal between a beer, a shot & a glass of wine. The exception would be certain types of higher alcohol content booze, one that comes to mind is everclear.
Vodka is the drink of choice for alcoholics for one reason: It's clear and looks just like water when poured in a glass. Vodka can also be added to soft drinks, juice, coffee, etc without changing the color or giving off a noticeable smell. Obviously, all alcoholics don't drink vodka, but my experience has been that many eventually move to vodka.
I'm sure the progression for alcoholics tends to be stronger drinks.
for me, beer ended up as whisky.
but often, when I see street drinkers they are usually on the strong lager, cider or some kind of wine based drink.
cost must be a factor.
but for sure, those who don't like whisky, do seem to hit the vodka.
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