Ever seen an 'alcoholic' go from drinking alcoholically to moderately and healthily? (people)

[fibonacci]

Personally, I've never seen it happen. Know several alcholics, and their alcoholism just keeps getting worse. The only time I've seen an alcoholic change is when they quit cold turkey, and that was due to a major event like being arrested/thrown in jail for DUI, finding out about a significant health issue due to alcoholism, or losing a family because of drinking.

[Radio Flyer]

Originally Posted by robertpolyglot

I learned that he was also in AA. He talked about how many different meetings he went to, and then to all the personal functions of these people (weddings, funerals, etc.), almost as if it supplied his social life. He told me he had been sober for a quarter of a century. I really thought that he didn't need to go, but went anyway.

Smart guy. He probably doesn't need to go, he wants to go.

There's great comradery amongst recovering alcoholics. Meetings are not all doom and gloom. They're not only beneficial, they can be fun, even entertaining. The older coots have great stories to tell, and they can be quite funny.

We all, (alcoholics and non-alcoholics alike) could learn a thing or two from these very wise people.

[Snowball7]

Yes, I am one of them. I was what you would refer to as an "alcoholic"
from my teens through my early 30's. I'm not going to get into my
whole story but I went to AA numerous times, I never felt comfortable
there and never believed their total black or white approach. As a matter
of fact, I saw many who bought the AA motto hook line and sinker fall
into the psychological trap that they could never control or master their
alcohol intake, they "fell off the wagon" and it became a self-fulfilling
prohecy because they went nuts on it again and ruined their lives even more
when they "relapsed". Once you really believe 100% that if you take a drink
it will always lead to severe abuse, you condition yourself to behave that way.
For the last 8 years or so, I've been able to drink moderately (1-4), or even
more than that with friends on a night out, get a good buzz on, then go
weeks and even multiple months at a time with no urges.
My drinking is very casual and not compulsive anymore.
It took me about 2 years to fully make the transition.
To me, the AA line is a prison of fear. With God's help I have put alcohol in its place.
If you are "quitting" for the first time, however, I do recommend going cold turkey
for a full year. It took me a couple years before I really killed the urge to drink
compulsively. Now that I did, it simply doesn't exist for me anymore. I can watch
beer commercials and see others drink while out, drive by a liquor store, etc,
and honestly feel absolutely no urge. At the times when I will drink now,
it is never because I feel an urge in the same way that I used to.
Just be very careful and know you cannot fool yourself, you can't be lax
and drink heartily for days at a time anymore. If you're new to this, quit
totally for 1 year then try another year, then determine for yourself.
No sense in talking about it if you can't quit totally first.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by robertpolyglot

I knew this one guy who frequented this one diner often for lunch. He was clearly past retirement age. He spoke to me a few times and started telling me about his life. I learned that he was a devout Catholic - going to a lot of church related functions, which is not a bad thing. I learned that he was also in AA. He talked about how many different meetings he went to, and then to all the personal functions of these people (weddings, funerals, etc.), almost as if it supplied his social life. He told me he had been sober for a quarter of a century. I really thought that he didn't need to go, but went anyway.

Bam!

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

Vodka is the drink of choice for alcoholics for one reason: It's clear and looks just like water when poured in a glass. Vodka can also be added to soft drinks, juice, coffee, etc without changing the color or giving off a noticeable smell. Obviously, all alcoholics don't drink vodka, but my experience has been that many eventually move to vodka.

I somewhat agree with you, but personally I think people who use vodka in such a away are deluded - the stuff is rank.

Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda

I'm sure the progression for alcoholics tends to be stronger drinks.

for me, beer ended up as whisky.

but often, when I see street drinkers they are usually on the strong lager, cider or some kind of wine based drink.

cost must be a factor.

but for sure, those who don't like whisky, do seem to hit the vodka.

Perhaps even though they're on the streets they still want to maintain some level of control as not to end up in jail or the hospital all the time. Maybe they're alcohol-dependant, without being compulsive to the extent they get wasted all the time.

Originally Posted by fibonacci

Personally, I've never seen it happen. Know several alcholics, and their alcoholism just keeps getting worse. The only time I've seen an alcoholic change is when they quit cold turkey, and that was due to a major event like being arrested/thrown in jail for DUI, finding out about a significant health issue due to alcoholism, or losing a family because of drinking.

I've seen this happen, but who knows - those cases could be alcoholic abusers who just decided to give up alcohol after it caused such trouble ("ain't worth it") disregarding any idea of learning to drink right for fear of another troublesome incident.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by Snowball7

Yes, I am one of them. I was what you would refer to as an "alcoholic"
from my teens through my early 30's. I'm not going to get into my
whole story but I went to AA numerous times, I never felt comfortable
there and never believed their total black or white approach. As a matter
of fact, I saw many who bought the AA motto hook line and sinker fall
into the psychological trap that they could never control or master their
alcohol intake, they "fell off the wagon" and it became a self-fulfilling
prohecy because they went nuts on it again and ruined their lives even more
when they "relapsed". Once you really believe 100% that if you take a drink
it will always lead to severe abuse, you condition yourself to behave that way.
For the last 8 years or so, I've been able to drink moderately (1-4), or even
more than that with friends on a night out, get a good buzz on, then go
weeks and even multiple months at a time with no urges.
My drinking is very casual and not compulsive anymore.
It took me about 2 years to fully make the transition.
To me, the AA line is a prison of fear. With God's help I have put alcohol in its place.
If you are "quitting" for the first time, however, I do recommend going cold turkey
for a full year. It took me a couple years before I really killed the urge to drink
compulsively. Now that I did, it simply doesn't exist for me anymore. I can watch
beer commercials and see others drink while out, drive by a liquor store, etc,
and honestly feel absolutely no urge. At the times when I will drink now,
it is never because I feel an urge in the same way that I used to.
Just be very careful and know you cannot fool yourself, you can't be lax
and drink heartily for days at a time anymore. If you're new to this, quit
totally for 1 year then try another year, then determine for yourself.
No sense in talking about it if you can't quit totally first.

Okay, now you're getting spot-on with what I was asking about in my original post and touching base on what I wonder if is true about AA's effect on *some people*. Personally, I've had a VERY similar experience as you. I don't think AA's principles and programs are wrong. In fact, I think if they are followed they can serve a mere alcohol abuser well in getting his drinking in check and not letting it continue to own him.

[MOKAN]

Originally Posted by caligirlz

Ok, I'm curious, why are you so interested in this subject again? I forgot. One thing I have found over the years, is that nonalcoholics are virtually unable to understand alcoholics. Oh yeah, you can discuss the pros & cons, and this theory or that one, but unless you've been in my shoes, or affected by the disease, it is rare for a nonalcoholic to understand. So sorry I did not explain things from the perspective of craving, that you understood...It was quite clear to me. As it would be to any other sober alcoholic. I don't need your approval to agree with me. I most definitely am/was an alcoholic.

It might help your understanding to actually read AA's Big Book & the 12 Steps. It talks about all your questions, and is backed up by outside sources.

I think it's pretty clear you subscribe fairly strictly to AA's doctrine, but AA and its principles are only one aspect of this thread. I'm so interested in this subject because I've lived much of what is being discussed and am the person I described in third person earlier in the thread. And I wasn't arguing the validity of you being an alcoholic - just aiming to nail down what exactly makes one an alcoholic, which seems to be a very difficult thing to do. I've said this before, but I see a parallel between alcoholism and homosexuality. They're both things that have to be self-proclaimed and that there aren't any solid, clear-cut indicators for, yet both are said to be 'real'.

[BlackShoe]

Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda

for sure, I would call alcoholism to be a 'mental disorder' - and most long term drinkers tend to be 'binge drinkers' IMO.

but it's a mental disorder that can be reversed with willpower!

Originally Posted by caligirlz

Not in my case. Not for any alcoholic I know! And I've been around this thing for many years.

Originally Posted by fibonacci

Personally, I've never seen it happen. Know several alcholics, and their alcoholism just keeps getting worse. The only time I've seen an alcoholic change is when they quit cold turkey, and that was due to a major event like being arrested/thrown in jail for DUI, finding out about a significant health issue due to alcoholism, or losing a family because of drinking.

I am one who did get sober through so called white knuckle willpower. No AA, drugs, in or out patient programs, etc., just me. I have been sober since 1992. That year I moved in with a woman I loved, and I knew that I could not continue drinking and make the relationship work, so the motivation was certainly there. The sobriety lasted, the relationship didn't. According to some studies I have seen, just plain willpower and quitting is more common among alcoholics than is generally believed. I have no intention or desire whatsoever to return to social drinking. Have been around drinkers and drinking in social settings, and even a few bars and nightclubs, and have had no urges at all to have a drink, in fact, the thought and just being there revolted me.

Fast forward to 2012-2013 and things get complicated. I have become deeply involved with a woman that is an alcoholic, in spite of absolutely knowing better. If anyone should know better, it should be a sober alcoholic, right? The problem is, we often do not chose wisely the persons we fall in love with. Now I must bear the hell of a relatonship with a woman in total denial, knowing what is happening, and suffering the hurts that an alcoholic inflicts on those closest to them. Everyone I know has told me to just end it and leave her, but still I hang on, leaving her for short periods only to keep coming back, hoping she will change for the better. So, what we have is a sober alcoholic that has never been to AA, who should go to Al-Anon, in love with a woman who should go to AA. Sounds almost funny, does it not, but it sure as hell is not, it hurts very much.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by MOKAN

SOME people get dragged/forced/encouraged to AA "kicking and screaming". SOME people become addicted to AA using it as a vice in and of itself.

I hear ya. Some folks are court ordered because they broke the law and this is a penance they must follow through on in order to not get sent to jail.

Ever notice how here and there, once in a while, someone gets sentenced to A.A. and they're not disturbed by it? I was one of those. I was devastated by some of my actions while drinking and was more than willing to take my punishment, pay my dues, do whatever it was I was supposed to do in order to not drink again. I knew deep down that this was the long term solution for me. I was quite sure that since I decided not to drink and had many reasons to back me up on that decision, that this would be all there was to it; just don't drink.

Originally Posted by MOKAN

What I mainly meant is when an alcoholic is 'possessed' by the 'phenomenon of craving' or 'craving' or 'compulsion' to drink, they will drink anything! I've heard of some even drinking mouthwash and rubbing alcohol (the latter I think must be a cry for help or way of getting attention, unless the person is really uneducated/stupid).

You might have done well to insert that word SOME here as well. I'm a recovered alcoholic who just never ever did get the urge to drink mouthwash, cooking wine, vinegar, bay rum, etc. When I was a kid though, I loved Nyquil, Vicks 44, Robutussin, my dad's hot toddys, etc. But if I wanted to get drunk, I'd get some money and go buy booze. I was never so hard up to not be able to buy some. Bum ≠ alcoholic. Maybe some alkies are so advanced that they will drink anything. But most alkies were like me in that we have to capacity to build a life around ourselves with family, homes, cars, etc., and at some point in time, we pull the structure down on ourselves, but always have the capacity to build it back up again in time.

I have a working definition for the alcoholic and where this continuum separates folks like me from the hard drinker or potential hard drinker.

I am an alcoholic because I have two things operating simultaneously or at least, either/or at certain times, but for the most part, working both together not separately. Those two conditions are the "phenomenon of craving" as you so aptly put it, and the other is the mental obsession which says, "I can control and enjoy my drinking. Just watch." The phenonenon of craving is that thing which goes off in the alcoholic or... hard drinker... once they put booze into their body. This is why I over-indulge in booze most every time I decide to drink that one drink but I, unlike most, do not recall ever wanting to just drink one and stop. If I'm gonna drink, I'm gonna drink. I drink to get drunk and once I make the decision, I carry on with it with no fear, apprehension, etc. whatever despite recent hardships/consequences of past drinking. I've never started drinking and felt fear or out of control. Do you? If so, you and I are different.

Now, I, like the hard drinker, have times where I over-indulge and arise remorseful and hung-over and sick and in shock and horror over what I might have done the night before. I suffer, heal up, and do what I have to do in order to position myself to never drink like that again, but my logical mind goes to "quit for good and all." How about you? You think this same way? If not, you and I are different. But I also believe that the hard drinker does this too.

So what exactly separates the alky from the hard drinker? It is my belief that the hard drinker can at certain times... like the alcoholic... decide to not drink, or also perhaps drink and control the amount, given a sufficiently strong reason. But the alky may at times be able to do one or the other... or perhaps very rare circumstances, but not do either/or on a consistent basis. I have probably drank before then the next day gone on the wagon. Or maybe there was a time when I came home from work, had a couple of beers watching tv, fell asleep on the couch and didn't get drunk. But given time, I will be either unable to drink and control the amount once I start and also be unable to keep myself from the first drink. The hard drinker may only be able to do either or, but that's enough. They may not be able to drink a few and stop. But given a sufficiently strong reason will be able to just not drink the first one for long periods of time. I would like to meet the hard drinker who can drink two bourbon and cokes and stop... as in no more for the evening, then the next night, come home from work, pour themselves a beer and maybe drink a shot and a beer and stop. My uncle Dan from New York did that. He was perhaps not an alky and perhaps not even a hard drinker. He liked his shot and beer. What's wrong with that? He died in his 80s and had a great life. Yeah, I would say that he was not a hard drinker at all.

Originally Posted by caligirlz

AA says "recovering alcoholic". I always hated that term. At this point in the game, I say I'm a recovered alcoholic. I don't believe that I'm cured. Or that I can drink again.

Yeah, some folks say some stupid stuff in meetings. But what does it say in the book? How many times does it say recovered? How many times does it say recovering?

Ever notice how folks who say they are recovering aren't? They are saying the A.A. program does not work, they are saying that they are not responsible for their lives... and if anything bad happens to them, it's because they are recovering. Either that or they are playing small... with false humility.

Originally Posted by caligirlz

I don't ever want to return there to that place of morally incomprehensible demoralization!! Basically, life sucked during those years. I don't ever want to return to that place!

Pitiful... incomprehensible demoralization.

I've been sober just over 9 years using A.A. I go to one meeting a week, my homegroup. We do steps yearly. We start the work on about September 1st and have all our amends done by Thanksgiving and have the rest of the year to work on 10, 11, and 12. If we go to more than one meeting a week, it's to socialize, to maybe help the newcomer, have a cup of coffee and chill for an hour, etc. A.A. is not required for my sobriety. I am at a place where I just don't want to drink, don't want to get high on drugs, don't want to abuse meds. I believe that getting high or drunk is merely seeking a state of consciousness and it's so effective for first-timers because the booze or drug merely deadens the lower and negative states of consciousness for perhaps an instant and the person gets to experience who they really are in an instant and fleeting state of bliss. I do steps to make my life worth living. It works. I can understand the alcoholic or the addict.

My dad quit drinking shortly after I did and has been dry for about 8 and a half years. He grinds his teeth, but he does ok. I think he'd do well to plug into some kind of spiritual healing, such as with his anger and fear, but he choses to do it his way and he'll live a lot longer than he would have. He doesn't seem to miss it either.

I have booze in my house. My wife has wine and even some beer in the fridge. Let me go see what she's got in there; Pyramid Apricot Ale. She drank one about a few nights ago and has 5 left. We also have a bottle of Jack Daniels Bourbon in a Waterford Crystal in our spare bedroom. No biggie to me.

[Pawporri]

Originally Posted by caligirlz
AA says "recovering alcoholic". I always hated that term. At this point in the game, I say I'm a recovered alcoholic. I don't believe that I'm cured. Or that I can drink again.

Its good to see another real AA who actually reads the black in the Big Book, as also pointed out by McGowdog.
I too am a recovered alcoholic. Some may say this is nitpicking but it has profound meaning in how a person defines him/herself. In going thru the step process outlined in the Big Book
Step 2 says we desire restoration to "sanity." If I am recovered, I do not want to be struggling with urges for booze. It should not have power in my life anymore.

The Big Book even states We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us." It also goes on to say "We are not cured of alcoholism. What we have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition." Spiritual is not a holy roller thing for me it simply means practicing the Golden Rule and striving for progress rather than perfection each new day. How do I keep in fit condition, I practice Steps 10, 11, & 12 on a daily basis - that's why they are called the Maintenance Steps.

[Pawporri]

In regards to the OP topic, I have never witnessed a person go out and come back to AA with a successful
drinking story. I have personally seen 3 die trying. I have seen numerous ones who come and stay a year or more who
you never see again. I would be highly skeptical that they succeded, but it may be possible. The truth in the matter of drink for me is that I can't. The primary problem for real alcoholics is that they are unable to see the truth in the matter of drink as it pertains to them because their own best judgement is invalid regarding their alcohol consumption.