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Old 02-17-2013, 06:01 AM
Status: "My ship may finally have come in....." (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Live in NY State, work in CT
8,811 posts, read 14,144,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I think some of you people are very young. The attempted annihilation of the Jews wasn't generally called "The Holocaust" until a TV movie of that name came out back in the 1970s. The movie title then got picked up and used as a general reference. I wouldn't go reading too deeply into the term.

I had dinner with a friend last night, and we were just talking about how when we were kids we both knew of delis or stores owned by Jews who still had their numbers tattooed on their arms. Do the deniers think that these people had that done just to perpetuate the story while they went about their business of making brisket on rye sandwiches?
Good point on the 2nd paragraph (I myself have a few relatives with those tattoos), but 1st point is not true at all. You just didn't hear it talked about a lot in the media until then because at that point it was over 30 years removed. But long before the movie (I was in elementary and middle school in the 1970s) I had heard the term in school, and occasionally in stories about WW II, etc.

As to the other comments:

1) It's known there were millions of Jews in Europe before Hitler. Where did they all go I ask the ones who say it was only 100-500K?

2) However, a "little known secret" is that 5 million non-Jews were also gassed, etc. by Hitler. They generally consisted of:

- Gypsies/Roma
- Gays
- The disabled
- Anyone who openly opposed Hitler and was "caught" or who was too weak to be "useful to the state", etc.

If you look that one up you can find plenty of info on it, and not from "hate sites" like Stormfront, etc. either. You don't hear about it as much because it wasn't an entire continent's community, nor 1/3 of the entire world population like it was the Jews (to answer that poster, of course not ALL the Jews were killed as many (like my mom's side of the family, it's my father's side who lived in Europe in the 1930s and many escaped to America and/or survived Hitler) were living in the US, Canada, the UK, etc. that were never controlled by the Nazis. Most of the Jews of Russia were never under Nazi domination either (see point 3 below).

3) Even in WW I, people started to think of chemical weapons like we do nukes today (i.e. if targeted right, we could "end the world" with them), so the technology was definitely there. "Dirty secret #2": Stalin killed 20 million of his citizens during WW II. He also targeted the Jews, but not in quite as direct/overt a way as Hitler, and he was very much an "equal opportunity murderer", he killed far more non-Jews and while he killed a significant number of Jews, it was not 90+% of Russia's population of them.
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:25 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
17,347 posts, read 21,510,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Wishes View Post
Good point on the 2nd paragraph (I myself have a few relatives with those tattoos), but 1st point is not true at all. You just didn't hear it talked about a lot in the media until then because at that point it was over 30 years removed. But long before the movie (I was in elementary and middle school in the 1970s) I had heard the term in school, and occasionally in stories about WW II, etc.

As to the other comments:

1) It's known there were millions of Jews in Europe before Hitler. Where did they all go I ask the ones who say it was only 100-500K?

2) However, a "little known secret" is that 5 million non-Jews were also gassed, etc. by Hitler. They generally consisted of:

- Gypsies/Roma
- Gays
- The disabled
- Anyone who openly opposed Hitler and was "caught" or who was too weak to be "useful to the state", etc.

If you look that one up you can find plenty of info on it, and not from "hate sites" like Stormfront, etc. either. You don't hear about it as much because it wasn't an entire continent's community, nor 1/3 of the entire world population like it was the Jews (to answer that poster, of course not ALL the Jews were killed as many (like my mom's side of the family, it's my father's side who lived in Europe in the 1930s and many escaped to America and/or survived Hitler) were living in the US, Canada, the UK, etc. that were never controlled by the Nazis. Most of the Jews of Russia were never under Nazi domination either (see point 3 below).

3) Even in WW I, people started to think of chemical weapons like we do nukes today (i.e. if targeted right, we could "end the world" with them), so the technology was definitely there. "Dirty secret #2": Stalin killed 20 million of his citizens during WW II. He also targeted the Jews, but not in quite as direct/overt a way as Hitler, and he was very much an "equal opportunity murderer", he killed far more non-Jews and while he killed a significant number of Jews, it was not 90+% of Russia's population of them.


Growing up in and around NYC in the 1960s, I heard the word Holocaust before the 1970s miniseries also. It's not an invented word.

While I', not Jewish, my Grandmother lived in a very Jewish area, and we lived there for the first years of my like.It was not at all uncommon to see people with tattoos on their forearms.
I have known personally several concentration camp survivors.

In my adult years I traveled to Eastern and Central Europe and I saw two concentration camps. I also saw Baba Yar in Ukraine where Jews were killed before the concentration camps and may be some of the uncounted Holocaust victims.

Although other groups were most certainly targeted by Hitler and perished at the hands of the Nazis, Hitler really had it in for the Jews.

And so, today I would say that most Holocaust deniers are rabid anti Semites. They hate the Holocaust because they hate any attention being drawn to Jews or any sympathy being shown to them.
They are like the sibling who is jealous that his very sick sibling is getting attention, staying home from school and being served meals in bed. Only on a huge and more monstrous level.

They are annoyed by all conversation, memorials, discussion, or photographs of the Holocaust because most normal people believe in the Holocaust and find it horrifying.

This consensus, that the Holocaust was horrible, accepted by all normal human beings, further marginalizing them and showing just how sick, crazy, and hateful the deniers are.

So to answer the OPs question, they deny the Holocaust because they hate the Jewish people and they wish that the Holocaust, and the Jews, would just go away.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:34 AM
 
65 posts, read 124,833 times
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Quote:
They deny the Holocaust because they hate the Jewish people and they wish that the Holocaust, and the Jews, would just go away.
Bingo, you have that part right.

Now lets go in to why people hate the Jews.

1) Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people
2) AIPAC Lobbying and openly selecting U.S candidates on a Israel first platform
3) The federal reserve and Israel having a hand in all of our financial institutions.


I look at Israels belligerent foreign policy and the way Israeli duel citizens exploit the political system and media in the United States for the benefit of another nation and it quickly validates every racist remark uttered about Jews with merit.

I believe a genocide took place, and taking one look at Israel it's easy to see why.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,712,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yojimbo11 View Post
I look at Israels belligerent foreign policy and the way Israeli duel citizens exploit the political system and media in the United States for the benefit of another nation and it quickly validates every racist remark uttered about Jews with merit.

I believe a genocide took place, and taking one look at Israel it's easy to see why.
Yowza!
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:09 PM
Status: "My ship may finally have come in....." (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Live in NY State, work in CT
8,811 posts, read 14,144,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Growing up in and around NYC in the 1960s, I heard the word Holocaust before the 1970s miniseries also. It's not an invented word.

While I', not Jewish, my Grandmother lived in a very Jewish area, and we lived there for the first years of my like.It was not at all uncommon to see people with tattoos on their forearms.
I have known personally several concentration camp survivors.

In my adult years I traveled to Eastern and Central Europe and I saw two concentration camps. I also saw Baba Yar in Ukraine where Jews were killed before the concentration camps and may be some of the uncounted Holocaust victims.

Although other groups were most certainly targeted by Hitler and perished at the hands of the Nazis, Hitler really had it in for the Jews.

And so, today I would say that most Holocaust deniers are rabid anti Semites. They hate the Holocaust because they hate any attention being drawn to Jews or any sympathy being shown to them.
They are like the sibling who is jealous that his very sick sibling is getting attention, staying home from school and being served meals in bed. Only on a huge and more monstrous level.

They are annoyed by all conversation, memorials, discussion, or photographs of the Holocaust because most normal people believe in the Holocaust and find it horrifying.

This consensus, that the Holocaust was horrible, accepted by all normal human beings, further marginalizing them and showing just how sick, crazy, and hateful the deniers are.

So to answer the OPs question, they deny the Holocaust because they hate the Jewish people and they wish that the Holocaust, and the Jews, would just go away.
Well said, some comments:

Since I grew up in the NY metropolitan area as well, it may be that outside of heavily Jewish cities the term "the Holocaust" was not used as much until the miniseries, I'm too young and was not out of the area enough then to know

The 6 million figure includes all deaths, not just those in the camps/gas chambers. The gas chambers is simply how the majority of deaths happened. Babi Yar is considered part of the 6 million. Also there are many at the camps who although that's where the gas chambers were, did not die that way. Some died of starvation or just "wearing out" from forced labor rather than being directly murdered on site. Others tried to escape and were shot. Sometimes people were randomly shot just to "prove a point" to the other 'prisoners'. If someone says, "all 6 million didn't die by gassing", that is technically true, but murder is murder regardless.

And the point that "Hitler really had it in for the Jews" is exactly the point I was trying to make (in comparing to Stalin for example though he's really not much if any better from a moral standpoint). Though I'm pretty sure had the Nazis won the war he'd find other groups to exterminate once "done" with the Jews. If he ruled over a different part of the world he'd certainly go after all non-whites, for one. And some historians say even within Europe he was going to kill off the Slavic peoples next, but was using them as slave labor first.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:15 PM
 
802 posts, read 897,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
The technology of the day was sufficient. The Gas Chambers did not employ natural gas, so there was no need for pipelines. The Gas Chambers used a poisonous chemical gas made out of a toxic substance called Zyclon-b. In came in canisters.

All Jews would not be extinct because of the Holocaust. The Holocaust only took place on the European continent. A large number of Jews lived elsewhere. The United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and else where. Not all Jews in Europe were killed, but some 6 million were.

No one to my knowledge, "came to the aid of the Jews". It was not the reason why the US entered into WWII. Jews and others were liberated from concentration camps when allied troops invaded Nazi Occupied Europe.
It has been suggested that the amount of Zyklon B needed to kill people, even cumulative millions of people, would not leave traces as strong as the amount needed to kill lice in the delousing chambers. But when we factor in the Zyklon B traces still existing in the camp barracks and offices, we see that infrequent gassings will still leave SOME traces. Thus, we have the traces in the camp offices and barracks, which reveal what levels of traces would remain, fifty years after the fact, in rooms which were gassed infrequently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgoldie View Post
Wow, are you writing this for a school paper? (Hoodsof ATL)

The Germans happened to be excellent organizers and efficient engineers, unfortunately in this case. Zyklon gas canisters were tossed into bunkers where jews were rounded up in droves. This poison gas killed them. (No pipelines)

Jews happen to be spread around the globe in many countries and a few in europe were hidden and saved by gentiles. Some made it to safety and almost 1000 were granted protection in the US, many of whom I know personally. There was also a movement to safeguard jewish children into england.

I can tell you my own father was one of the first troops into more than one of the death camps and it cost him a lifetime of torment. I know other first hand stories in addition to his. Here is a link to primary statements by those who were condemned and there are many more on record there. Oswego NY Safe Haven Museum - Voices - Others will notice the statement that they felt compelled to perform to a high degree in society in return for the gift of life.
Perhaps you should visit a holocaust museum some time.
No, I'm not writing this for a school paper, I just figured that more people wouldn't be so caught up in their emotions that they would do research. Anyways, what was the reason for Hitler's obvious distaste for Jews, look into WW1 and the installation of the Federal Reserve and the 20th century history of Bank of England. Then look at Hitler and his monetary reform. Put 2 and 2 together, stir well. There you go...

Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
The Holocaust deniers (including HoodsofATL, even though he is saying he's not ... is that as in KKK hoods?) are repping each other, apparently. Pretty appalling but not surprising.

As others have already said more than once, the Holocaust revisionists have been debunked many times by reputable historians. If you would rather believe the revisionists (who have anti-Semitic agendas of their own) than reputable historians, so be it, but don't call it "digging for yourself" or "cross-referencing data" as if you have found some "truth" unknown to reputable scholars.

As to the Holocaust denier who complained that he didn't have "free speech" to deny the Holocaust: um, no one stopped you from posting. Just because people with brains don't believe you doesn't mean you don't have freedom of speech.
Do you know the reason behind WW2? Please don't tell me that it was the Jews because that is not why the US got into the war, yet they went after Nazi Germany. Also can you please explain how come blacks feel like they were more welcomed in Nazi Germany than America? And I don't have any ties with the Klan, unless of course we see each other face to face and exchange blows.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:49 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
17,347 posts, read 21,510,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
Yowza!
What she said. Are you implying that the Jewish people in some way deserved that?

No one deserved that! Also disagreeing with the policy of a particular country is no reason for hatred of it's people. I have disagreed with several US presidential administrations and yet, I do not hate my country.

YIKES!
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:58 PM
Status: "Slightly epter than last Thursday." (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
22,842 posts, read 11,809,535 times
Reputation: 10469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yojimbo11 View Post
Bingo, you have that part right.

Now lets go in to why people hate the Jews.

1) Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people
2) AIPAC Lobbying and openly selecting U.S candidates on a Israel first platform
3) The federal reserve and Israel having a hand in all of our financial institutions.


I look at Israels belligerent foreign policy and the way Israeli duel citizens exploit the political system and media in the United States for the benefit of another nation and it quickly validates every racist remark uttered about Jews with merit.

I believe a genocide took place, and taking one look at Israel it's easy to see why.
I'll bet you look spiffy in your white sheet.
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Ohio
17,757 posts, read 13,088,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth-Kaunda View Post
I came across a Holocaust denier the other day.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
People deny the Holocaust because they hate Jews. Simple.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
You sound like a Holocaust denier yourself. Just saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
The Holocaust deniers ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
Absolutely appalling. "Logic and science and history"? You clearly ARE a Holocaust denier.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TumbleBug View Post
Yes, denying it is furthering the abuse.

Holocaust deniers are really horrid and sick people. My country (Australia) doesn't allow them entry.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
Because, ANYONE who believes whatever evidence you have, ALL OF WHICH, has been proven false, debunked, made up, out and out lies, are just that: Ignorant, racist, BUFFOON's.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
To me it's like being a flat-earther. It requires seriously self-delusion.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelinLow View Post
To the OP question, because they are ignorant, stupid, or both.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
Agree. The countries, people, and political groups who are based on anti-Semitism (like the KKK, Neo-Nazis, modern Nazi parties, Islamist terror groups, militant Muslim nations) deny the Holocaust for their own reasons, to further their agendas.
Define "Holocaust" explicitly in no uncertain terms using your own words and no links or quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
These tend to be the same conspiracy theorists who believe:
--The US collaborated in the attack on Pearl Harbor
I am unaware of any claims the US collaborated in the attack on Pearl Harbor.

However, I am aware that the US had prior knowledge that the Japanese fleet was en route and an attack was pending. I am also aware that the US attempted to mount a classic "Counter-Ambush."

Knowing that the Japanese were about to attack, and being able to counter-ambush the Japanese, would accomplish two things: give the US a reason to be directly involved in WW II, and destroy the Japanese Fleet, giving the US an easy victory in the South Pacific over Japan.

Evidence proving the US contemplated a counter-attack is over-whelming.

1] An air search radar was transported to Japan and set up on one of the outer islands. The purpose of the radar was early detection of Japanese aircraft;

2] A big deal is made about parking US aircraft wingtip-to-wingtip directly on the flight-lines and taxi-ways. What you are told is that doing so enhances the security of the aircraft. What you are not told is that when aircraft are so parked, they contain "jump fuel" only. The aircraft were parked wingtip-to-wingtip, but they were also fully fueled and fully armed.....and that is the contradiction. Those aircraft were not parked that way for security reasons, rather they were parked as alert aircraft....to be immediately launched in response to an attack.

3] The carriers were sent out to sea with destroy escorts only. That is unusual. The location of the carriers was also unusual...moving north in December? The carriers should have moved south for safety so that they and the destroyers could avoid squalls. The carriers were sent north, because that is were the Japanese Fleet would arrive.

4] B-17 bombers were moved to Hawaii. Some of you may have seen the films Tora! Tora! Tora! or the horrid and recent Pearl Harbor. In those films, unarmed B-17 bombers arrived at Pearl Harbor during the attack, and they were unarmed and unable to defend themselves. That actually happened. A squadron of B-17 bombers arrived on Friday December 5, another on Saturday December 6, one on Sunday December 7, and the last squadron was due to arrive on Monday December 8 in preparation for the counter-ambush on Wednesday or Thursday. The reason the B-17s were unarmed, is because Hawaii was beyond their combat radius, and beyond their range, so they were stripped down and loaded with fuel, including fuel canisters to refuel in-flight (they dump the fuel into the wing-cells).

So why would you need B-17s in Hawaii? There are no targets anywhere to attack.

Viktor Sorge was an ethnic German living in the Ukraine (a "Black Sea German"). When the Germans came through, Hitler took a liking to the guy and posted him to the Reichembassy in Tokyo. Sorga was actually a Soviet spy passing information to the Soviets.

It is because of the heroism of Sorge that the Germans were stopped on the Eastern Front.

The Soviets had many divisions in Siberia in the region of Manchuria, because the Japanese Army was sitting in Manchuria. Stalin correctly feared a two-front war with the Germans in the west and the Japanese in the east. But, since Sorge had intelligence on the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Stalin correctly guessed that Japan would not attack the Soviet Union if they were planning war with the US.

That allowed the Soviets to move their divisions secretly out of Manchuria and marshal them in Central Asia. The Soviets used cows, horses, donkeys, mules and Soviet troops to push/pull tanks, troop carriers and other vehicles out of Manchuria at night......turning on the engines would have alerted the Japanese to troop movements and might have induced an attack.

Once marshaled in Central Asia, the Soviets could use those divisions to reinforce where the Germans were attacking...and they did....and some of those units ended up at Stalingrad, which caused an early end to the war when Paulus surrendered the 6th Army.

Sorge misidentified one of the Japanese ships. They were sister ships....3 of them actually. Sorge believed the ship was sailing to the marshaling point with the main Japanese Fleet. He estimated 2-3 days for arrival.

For the US, that meant the Japanese Fleet would be in range to launch an attack on Pearl Harbor on Wednesday December 10 or Thursday December 11.

Unfortunately, the Japanese Fleet had departed on the day Sorge saw the ship sailing out and misidentified it.

Had things gone as planned....the radar station on the outer island would have detected the Japanese aircraft. US aircraft, already fully-fueled and armed would have immediately launched. One group would strip the Japanese fighters off while the other attacked the bomber and torpedo planes. Whatever bombers and torpedo planes got through would be hit by both land and ship-based anti-aircraft batteries.

The US aircraft would have chased/followed the Japanese aircraft back to the carriers, then radioed the location of the Japanese Fleet to the US carriers, who would then launch attacks against the Japanese Fleet. The land-based aircraft would have returned and refueled, rearming for a bombing mission, while another group rearmed for air escort. Land-based and carrier-based aircraft would have made constant attacks on the Japanese Fleet, until finally the B-17s with their fighter escorts went out and finished off the Fleet.......and a Japanese Fleet is the only possible target that would ever be in range of a B-17.

End Result: the Japanese Fleet is totally annihilated, Pearl Harbor is unscathed, and the US has a justifiable cause to enter WW II......not to mention FDR and the military look, really, really good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
--The US government planned and carried out the 9-11 attacks
I don't see any evidence the US government was involved.....but I do see evidence of an handful of government bureaucrats acting without authority engaged in a conspiracy.

Any particular reason why federal laws were violated and neither Flight 93 nor Flight 77 were reconstructed.....as required by federal law?

Any particular reason a criminal investigation was never conducted?

Not amused...

Mircea


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
If someone believes about 200k-1m died, but were not gassed, is that "holocaust" denial ?
That would depend on how "Holocaust" is explicitly defined in no uncertain terms, and what you're basing your claim on.

"Holocaust" means different things to different people, so without knowing exactly....to the letter....in detail....what it means, there's really no way to discuss or debate it, because one person is really talking about apples, while another is talking about oranges, and yet another is talking about pick-up trucks, while still another is talking about DVDs/DVD players.

"Holocaust" is like "Bad Economy."

What does "Bad Economy" mean? High unemployment rate? Flat/declining wages? Low/stagnant GDP growth? Real Inflation? Cost Inflation? Interest Inflation? Bad housing market? High gasoline prices? Some of those things, all of those things, other things not mentioned?

Without a clear definition, it would be possible to deny the Holocaust, without actually denying the Holocaust.

Explicitly.....


Mircea

Quote:
Originally Posted by karen_in_nh_2012 View Post
I would suggest taking a legitimate history course ....
I have. I even have a book autographed by Christopher Browning. We spoke at length about Hess. Then another time we talked about the Central Government.

Legitimately...

Mircea
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Old 02-17-2013, 02:00 PM
 
65 posts, read 124,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
disagreeing with the policy of a particular country is no reason for hatred of it's people. I have disagreed with several US presidential administrations and yet, I do not hate my country.

YIKES!
Sure it is, as an act of the Israeli equivalent of the constitution (which they don't have) it is not a secular or multicultural state it specifically acknowledges Judaism as the state religion and classifies itself as a Jewish ethnic state.

All Jews by birth right are automatically citizens of Israel, Jewish people culturally decided to intermingle their ethnicity, religion and state as one entity and one people.

It's real simple, don't want to be associated with Israel stop being Jewish.

Don't want to be the target of priest and sex offender jokes, leave the catholic church.

It's not any different than criticizing Catholics if the Vatican had an army, belligerent foreign policy and bulldozed their non catholic neighbors houses because god said they get to live there.

I don't care about the genocide event because Israel and prominent Jews use it to garner sympathy for their flagrant violations of international law in regards to nuclear proliferation and apartheid.

I don't think anyone is worthy of genocide but generational ingrained cultural hate doesn't just pop of thin air with no rational basis.

No one says lets go stick these people in ovens for no reason, same way no one said lets suicide bomb the twin towers for no reason.

These are both reactions to actions, where you agree with them or not.

Blaming WWII genocide of a entire group on irrational baseless hate is dim.
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