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Old 09-03-2013, 10:28 PM
 
186 posts, read 361,736 times
Reputation: 167

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that's right. It takes about $5000 worth of guns, ammo and training to be worth a hoot in a gunfight, with a handgun or a longarm. if you want to be able to use either one, it's almost double the cost, and you really need another $5000 worth of hand to hand training, just to have a fair chance of being able to "buy' the time and space needed to bring the gun into play.Very few care that much about their life, their freedom or their honor. They'd rather spend 10x that amount on booze, tobacco, and junkfood (in 3 years) as vs the gun training lasting for life. It's simply not true that yuo gotta do lots of live fire to stay good. Dryfire and airsoft can handle 90 % of it.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Bergen County, Nazi Jerky
367 posts, read 958,226 times
Reputation: 463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkmani View Post
Despite my socially liberal opinions, I'm really considering getting a gun. I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there are too many unmedicated people in this society. A taser can only do so much damage. It would just be for home use.

God forbid that I really do have to shoot someone, I'm thinking about my nerves. My voice shakes when I'm afraid. What if I'm shaking like a leaf? How would I cope with the fact that I'm responsible for someone's death? Who's going to clean up all the blood splatter in my carpet and on the walls? The investigators will come into my home with their shoes on, that's disgusting.
Your post is stupid. Would you rather it was your blood on the walls? Truth is, I think you are a troll looking to stir the pot.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:44 AM
 
16,488 posts, read 24,437,936 times
Reputation: 16339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkmani View Post
Despite my socially liberal opinions, I'm really considering getting a gun. I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there are too many unmedicated people in this society. A taser can only do so much damage. It would just be for home use.

God forbid that I really do have to shoot someone, I'm thinking about my nerves. My voice shakes when I'm afraid. What if I'm shaking like a leaf? How would I cope with the fact that I'm responsible for someone's death? Who's going to clean up all the blood splatter in my carpet and on the walls? The investigators will come into my home with their shoes on, that's disgusting.
Many people are killed with their own guns in home invasion/robbery situations. If you are going to get a gun, go get shoot lessons and go to a shooting range often and practice. That way you will be very used to handling your gun and will have far more confidence. Having a gun personally scares me, I'd rather have a taser. If you kill someone in your home you will be responsible to cleaning it up. If you live alone and an intruder kills YOU with your own gun or theirs, there are people within the department that clean up crime scenes. Anyone that owns a gun needs to be prepared mentally with the idea that one day they may have to use that gun in self defense and may injure or kill someone. Don't own a gun if you do not feel like you could handle that situation if it were to arise.

Last edited by brokencrayola; 09-05-2013 at 01:47 AM.. Reason: add
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY 🇺🇸
36,754 posts, read 14,771,171 times
Reputation: 35584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkmani View Post
Despite my socially liberal opinions, I'm really considering getting a gun. I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there are too many unmedicated people in this society. A taser can only do so much damage. It would just be for home use.

God forbid that I really do have to shoot someone, I'm thinking about my nerves. My voice shakes when I'm afraid. What if I'm shaking like a leaf? How would I cope with the fact that I'm responsible for someone's death? Who's going to clean up all the blood splatter in my carpet and on the walls? The investigators will come into my home with their shoes on, that's disgusting.


Please step away from the gun display.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:42 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 4,311,680 times
Reputation: 4965
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFBonnett View Post
Your post is stupid. Would you rather it was your blood on the walls? Truth is, I think you are a troll looking to stir the pot.
Well, thanks a lot for your support (sarcasm intended). You can look at my previous posts, I'm not a troll.


I was thinking about the psychological effects of knowing that I killed someone (even though it was self-defense). And then having to clean up my home with all the dirt from the law enforcement's shoes, as well as the blood from the intruder/assailant. For me, that's a lot to deal with.
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Corona the I.E.
10,137 posts, read 17,437,588 times
Reputation: 9139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkmani View Post
Despite my socially liberal opinions, I'm really considering getting a gun. I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there are too many unmedicated people in this society. A taser can only do so much damage. It would just be for home use.

God forbid that I really do have to shoot someone, I'm thinking about my nerves. My voice shakes when I'm afraid. What if I'm shaking like a leaf? How would I cope with the fact that I'm responsible for someone's death? Who's going to clean up all the blood splatter in my carpet and on the walls? The investigators will come into my home with their shoes on, that's disgusting.
As somone that knows a fair amount about martial arts, SD, and the law...............the best non lethal home defense is wasp spray. It shoots much farther than mace doesn't disperse in air and burns like ****, even moreso than mace or pepper spray. I have worked with the violently, mentally ill, and you fear is warranted. I am 6 feet 205 and strong and have had a hard time getting one of my "clients" in a headlock when he exploded out of nowhere and he was 5'4" 130 and he was a handful.
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Corona the I.E.
10,137 posts, read 17,437,588 times
Reputation: 9139
One last thing. You remind me of my wife a bit. She admitted she can't shoot to kill to save her life. I said ok if someone breaks in I want you to jump out the 2nd story window, probably a broken ankle, and scream fire. Don't ever point a gun at someone unless you know you can shoot to kill because if you look shakey that gun will be taken away and used against you
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:00 AM
 
1 posts, read 659 times
Reputation: 12
Default A few things.

A few things here.

First, we'll get the questions at the end out of the way. If you were forced to shoot someone, whether they die or not there will most likely be a mess left behind. There are professional companies that take care of this kind of thing, and the police would be able to recommend a local service. (Sometimes you find ads for these guys that are sorta gross, advertising they specialize in suicides and crime scenes.) Yes, cops are coming and no they won't take their shoes off. As others have pointed out, would you rather have to deal with a mess or find out what the home invader has in mind for you and yours?

Second, as to the type of weapon you might choose: there are a number of things to consider. The first of which is that a lot of people on here don't know what they're talking about. For example depending on how it's loaded, a shotgun can most certainly penetrate your walls and harm someone in your neighborhood.

Shotguns give you a choice between multiple types of ammo. The first is bird shot, fine pellets designed to pattern out to kill birds. Then there is turkey, which is a heavier form of bird shot. Then there is buck shot, which is meant to kill deer, it's larger balls of lead or other metal some as large as 1/4" in diameter. Then you have slugs, single lumps of metal like a pistol bullet, which are also meant to kill large animals such as deer or bear. Finally there's specialty ammo such as flechettes and other types meant specifically for personal defense.

The first two types of ammunition will probably not penetrate your walls, but they could in theory do so. It would depend on the exact type of shot, how close you were and if you accidentally shot out a window. The second two types of ammo will almost certainly leave your house and go elsewhere if you miss an intruder. The exotic defense loads I won't comment on because they vary so much in what they do.

There are some myths being propagated about shotguns in this thread. First, part of a pattern of bird shot would most likely do nothing other than anger a home invader (not knock them out of the fight), especially if they're on drugs. Second a shotgun does not pattern out as fast as many people here would suggest. From a normal, un-choked home defense shotgun you can expect a pattern about 4"-5" across at 10 yards. Obviously this is much larger than a single bullet from a rifle or handgun, but it is still small enough that it's not terribly difficult to miss a moving target, especially in the dark when you're scared out of your mind.

I do however agree with the poster who mentioned people running away when you rack a shotgun. Anyone with a brain would flee when they heard you rack it. If they don't they deserve what they get, and hopefully they haven't yet reproduced because they're dumbing down the gene pool. The sound is universally understood as is the damage the weapon can do if the shooter hits you with it.

Third, when it comes to handguns this is pretty much personal preference. If you like revolvers for some reason then go right ahead and get one. If you prefer a semi-automatic, go with that. The modern semi-auto's are quite reliable once they've been broken in (which takes about 500 rounds). If you take care of the gun and know what you're doing with it, jams should be exceedingly rare with a quality gun & ammo and easy to take care of if they occur.

Don't be fooled into thinking that a revolver is invincible. I have one that had to be sent back to the manufacturer for maintenance when it was quite new because an internal spring broke. When that occurred you could open the cylinder and dump out the bullets but other than hitting someone with it or throwing it at them the gun was useless because the spring jammed the hammer.

No matter what type of handgun you choose, it's a mechanical device. It requires maintenance and parts do break and/or wear out. Nothing will ever change that. Proper care can significantly increase the life expectancy of parts, but eventually you will need to have it repaired or replace a barrel or something.

For handgun ammo, penetrating walls is a consideration. I wouldn't recommend a gun like the FN FiveSeven chambered in 5.7x28mm. It's a hot little round that will go right through the guy, a couple walls and potentially kill someone in another house.

However, most common pistol calibers such as .38 Special, 9mm, .40, .45, .380 etc etc can be purchased in a hollow point configuration. These rounds are designed for personal defense and expand on impact to expend as much of their energy as possible inside of your target to knock them down and do as much damage as possible. While they expand inside an intruder, they do the same thing when they come in contact with a hard surface. This expends energy and changes the shape of the bullet into something that's not aerodynamic, resulting in the bullet expending tons of energy moving through the air and making it much less likely to seriously harm someone if it does strike them.

You can also get frangible rounds. These are bullets made from metal dust pressed together. They fly apart to sand when they strike something hard. They were designed primarily for Air Marshal's to use to be effective in killing or seriously wounding a hijacker but not penetrating the metal skin of the aircraft. They're available in many common handgun rounds for pistols or revolvers. Some rifle rounds are available in this type of ammunition as well.

What I would NOT do is listen to people who suggest using .22LR as a defense round. While .22 is plenty dangerous, it doesn't have much knockdown power. It doesn't do you a lot of good to shoot someone with a lethal shot only to have them shoot, stab or beat you to death before they succumb to their injuries.

The reason the U.S. military adopted the .45 ACP round and got rid of the .38 Special in the first half of the 20th Century was because of an incident in the Philippine insurrection where Douglas MacArthur was rushed by a machete wielding insurrectionist who was high on a local plant based drug. MacArthur shot him six times in the chest with a .38 Special revolver as he was rushing towards MacArthur. The insurrectionist dropped at MacArthur's feet. .45 was adopted for the fact that while it may not kill the person you shoot with it the energy is imparts will many times knock them off their feet.

I've had a lot of people ask me what sort of gun they should buy. Due to this, I've developed a set of questions that I feel potential buys should ask themselves.

1) Is the gun available to you? If there's some quirk of state or local law that prevents you from getting your dream gun you need another option.

2) Is ammo available locally or easily obtainable online? Buying a gun chambered in something rare like 9mm Largo could be a problem if you can't get the ammo because then all you have is an expensive paper weight.

3) Does the round have the desired effect on target? Punching paper is a great job for a .22 pistol, putting down an assailant who's 5'10" tall and 180lbs high out of his mind on meth is a different story.

4) Can you handle the gun? I've met people who just can't shoot a .45 reliably. They needed to drop down to a .40 or 9mm. Be honest with yourself here. If what you really want in question 3 is too much gun, you'll have to sacrifice knockdown power for accuracy and reliable handling. If you can't handle a 12 gauge shotgun, try a 20 gauge etc.

5) Can you afford this? Sure you might have you eye on that H&K USP in .45, but can you afford the $1000+ price tag? Maybe you need to consider a slightly cheaper .45 like a Glock, IWI Baby Eagle or some other brand.

6) Does the gun require significant upgrade to be what you want it to be? For example, do you want to go through the paperwork and hassle to legally attach a suppressor to the gun? Well then you might want to consider what that costs, not just for the suppressor and tax stamp but for a tactical model pistol vs. turning a non-tactical pistol into one. [I was unable to get a USP tactical, or any other tactical pistol when I got my first suppressor. So I bought a regular full frame USP and upgraded the barrel and spring kit to function like a USP tactical. Sure, I saved $300 on the original gun, but the new barrel, spring kit, thread protector etc cost me another $400.]

Other things to consider here are things like laser sights, optics etc. Can the gun accept them?

Lastly, training.

Training is good. However a lot of it is overrated. The first thing to do when you buy a gun is familiarize yourself with it. READ the manual. Ask the seller questions. If you buy it from a place with a range, SHOOT IT. If you require guidance on how to do this ASK.

After you have done this, if you feel you want to do it. Take a basic pistol class. After that advance your training. There are many, many ex-military people in this country who make a living by teaching people like you how to properly use a weapon.

A few final thoughts.

This is not a decision to take lightly. If you know darn right well that you cannot, under any circumstances shoot another human being; do not buy a gun. The idea of carrying or even having a gun with no bullets in it is INSANE. If you pull a gun on some guy and are unwilling to shoot him, he's most likely going to take it from you. If it's not loaded, he's likely to beat the heck out of you with it or something else.

There are arguments back and forth with semi-auto's about carrying it with one in the chamber or not, using the safety or not, what safety is best ad nauseum. Personally I like to carry an SA/DA pistol with one in the chamber, hammer down and safety off or something like a Glock. That's my personal preference. What you choose to do is up to you. However, keep in mind that most of the times you might actually need this gun you'll have a few seconds at best to make a decision, pull the gun and bring it into action. Things like an external safety that's on or a gun without a round ready to go take time to take care of and can be forgotten. That extra second or so may well be the difference between you or the criminal getting shot.

As I said before, most of this is personal preference. What you choose is what's best for you because it's what you're comfortable with and capable of dealing with. Don't let other people pressure you. If you like your wheel gun, don't switch to a Sig 226 just because someone told you so and vice versa.

Think very carefully about what capabilities you want and communicate that to a gun store. They'll help you find the best firearm for you. Be honest with yourself and the shop. If someone tries to sell you a gun you know doesn't fit the bill, or you can't handle walk away and go somewhere else. Generally speaking, gun store people are not going to try to up-sell you. They know what they're doing and they want you to walk away happy with something you can handle and meets your needs, even if that means you bought a gun for $400 instead of the $2000 one on another shelf. \

Hope it helps, sorry for the length.
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Old 07-22-2014, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Not.here
2,828 posts, read 4,329,706 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkmani View Post
Despite my socially liberal opinions, I'm really considering getting a gun. I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but there are too many unmedicated people in this society. A taser can only do so much damage. It would just be for home use.

God forbid that I really do have to shoot someone, I'm thinking about my nerves. My voice shakes when I'm afraid. What if I'm shaking like a leaf? How would I cope with the fact that I'm responsible for someone's death? Who's going to clean up all the blood splatter in my carpet and on the walls? The investigators will come into my home with their shoes on, that's disgusting.
Have you had a specific incident that would make you want to purchase a gun? Really, there are all kinds of things out there in society that can pose dangers, but do we need to go to extremes in the hope that we can avoid every imagined situation? If I was really that concerned, I think I would invest in a good home alarm system. Btw, I've lived in and around many cities and no one's ever broken into my house. Of course, my big rotties always let me know with their barking when there's someone anywheres near the house. They let the people that come close to the house know also.
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:21 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,745,522 times
Reputation: 20030
Quote:
Originally Posted by plmokn View Post
right, we should all listen to the harvard economist with an agenda

OP, if you choose to get a firearm, then i suggest that if you have never handled one before, that you start with a good range instructor to teach you everything about what ever firearm you choose to purchase. in fact get the range instructor to aid you in selecting a firearm.

now understand that most criminals, probably about 90% of them, will run at the sight of a gun pointed at them. why? they dont want to get shot. of the 10% that are left, about 90% of those will run if you just discharge the firearm in their general direction, you dont even have to hit them. its those last few that you have to worry about, and chances are that you will never have to deal with those last few.

if you do though, there are professionals that can help you move on from a fatal, or near fatal, shooting. and remember this, you have the right to defend yourself against aggression, and depending on what state you live in, if you are in your home, you have no duty to retreat even if there is a path of retreat. so check your state laws before you buy.
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