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Instead of someone with an impressive diploma, consider seeking the advice of a wife with a happy, healthy, intimate relationship. I think my sister should just ask my mom for her advice. She should also ask my sister in law and her happily married friends. She can even ask me why I am so happy with my relationship!! Although I am not married myself, my love life is definitely much better than hers!!
Instead, she has to pay for a professional help. The end result is that she is feeling even worse and more miserable.
This is a little bit like the argument that people should home school their children because some public schools are of poor quality or because peer pressure is a Bad Thing. The basic problem is relationship dynamics. The parent / child relationship is crucial, but children know how to manipulate their parents and what they can get away with and when you confuse the role of parent and teacher it turns out that in many ways you can't be as effective. I can testify to this personally, as I home schooled my two biological children for several years back in my theist days. I wouldn't do it again, knowing what I know now.
There is another parallel, and that is that teachers are (or should be, at any rate) trained at the graduate or post graduate level in education, psychology and related areas and they do have chops that most parents do not. This would not have mattered so much 100 years ago but in the information age where early competence setting the foundation for fairly intense college level studies is crucial, I wouldn't discount it.
And then of course there is the whole matter of focus. Can someone, however, invested and caring because they're a family member, really have the time and energy on top of taking care of their own s__t and holding down a job, etc., really take someone else on as a responsibility, too? Should we be too cheap to pay someone to set aside the time and energy and make sure it's done right?
While psychology is not a hard science in a sense, and while in some ways any therapist is simply a hired friend, they are a trained friend and they are relatively objective. There is no history or investment with the patient, and they can call a spade a spade without extraneous repercussions like extended family second-guessing them (as the OP is doing).
All in theory, of course. A good therapist is not just a bit better than a mediocre one, they are at least an order of magnitude better. We've been through about 5 mental health professionals with our stepson to arrive at one who is a good fit for him as well as competent and experienced and motivated.
When it comes to marriage counselors, I would not at all disqualify someone who is divorced; it would depend entirely on how they responded to and learned from that divorce. It could give them insight and compassion, to help others avoid the same fate. Divorce is not necessarily a personal failure, and even if it is, how one responds to that is far more important than that it happened.
One place where my parallel breaks down is the area of privacy and confidentiality. That's a whole additional factor when it comes to either mental health or marital issues. Do you necessarily WANT your extended family or any member thereof privy to your most private and intimate secrets? If your problems in relationships are in any way tangled up in your family dynamic or your childhood experiences, are the very people who shared that experience with you the proper people to untangle the matter?
For example would you think your sister, with whom you might have sibling rivalry or any number of other issues, could provide objective marriage advice? How about Mom or Dad, who modeled how you should relate to a spouse -- both good and bad?
It is impossible for me to evaluate the therapist discussed by the OP objectively because we are only hearing one side of the story and it's clearly heavily biased against the therapist. Maybe for good reason, maybe not. If for good reason (and it's entirely possible for a given counselor to be so bad that Mom's advice would be more helpful) then I would find someone else. However it is the couple's choice and if they are both happy with the therapist then it is their business.
This is a little bit like the argument that people should home school their children because some public schools are of poor quality or because peer pressure is a Bad Thing. The basic problem is relationship dynamics. The parent / child relationship is crucial, but children know how to manipulate their parents and what they can get away with and when you confuse the role of parent and teacher it turns out that in many ways you can't be as effective. I can testify to this personally, as I home schooled my two biological children for several years back in my theist days. I wouldn't do it again, knowing what I know now.
There is another parallel, and that is that teachers are (or should be, at any rate) trained at the graduate or post graduate level in education, psychology and related areas and they do have chops that most parents do not. This would not have mattered so much 100 years ago but in the information age where early competence setting the foundation for fairly intense college level studies is crucial, I wouldn't discount it.
And then of course there is the whole matter of focus. Can someone, however, invested and caring because they're a family member, really have the time and energy on top of taking care of their own s__t and holding down a job, etc., really take someone else on as a responsibility, too? Should we be too cheap to pay someone to set aside the time and energy and make sure it's done right?
While psychology is not a hard science in a sense, and while in some ways any therapist is simply a hired friend, they are a trained friend and they are relatively objective. There is no history or investment with the patient, and they can call a spade a spade without extraneous repercussions like extended family second-guessing them (as the OP is doing).
All in theory, of course. A good therapist is not just a bit better than a mediocre one, they are at least an order of magnitude better. We've been through about 5 mental health professionals with our stepson to arrive at one who is a good fit for him as well as competent and experienced and motivated.
When it comes to marriage counselors, I would not at all disqualify someone who is divorced; it would depend entirely on how they responded to and learned from that divorce. It could give them insight and compassion, to help others avoid the same fate. Divorce is not necessarily a personal failure, and even if it is, how one responds to that is far more important than that it happened.
One place where my parallel breaks down is the area of privacy and confidentiality. That's a whole additional factor when it comes to either mental health or marital issues. Do you necessarily WANT your extended family or any member thereof privy to your most private and intimate secrets? If your problems in relationships are in any way tangled up in your family dynamic or your childhood experiences, are the very people who shared that experience with you the proper people to untangle the matter?
For example would you think your sister, with whom you might have sibling rivalry or any number of other issues, could provide objective marriage advice? How about Mom or Dad, who modeled how you should relate to a spouse -- both good and bad?
It is impossible for me to evaluate the therapist discussed by the OP objectively because we are only hearing one side of the story and it's clearly heavily biased against the therapist. Maybe for good reason, maybe not. If for good reason (and it's entirely possible for a given counselor to be so bad that Mom's advice would be more helpful) then I would find someone else. However it is the couple's choice and if they are both happy with the therapist then it is their business.
Here is the deal, and please read carefully before commenting.
Would you want to take advice from a 350lb trainer in term of how to stay in shape? I certainly wouldn't
This particular counselor has cheated on her husband, she is now divorced.
Let me ask you this very simple question, What makes her advice more credible and valuable than men and women who have successful happy marriages? This whole thing is a joke!
When I lost my loved one to suicide, I found a trauma counselor who is a suicide survivor herself. I can relate to her because she knew exactly what I was going through.
This counselor is a cheater of course she told my brother in law to forgive himself. All she did is make my sister feel guilty. Now my sister believes it is HER fault that her husband cheated!!!
How can you "fix" a cheater just by communicating better?! How?
Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 10-29-2013 at 07:07 AM..
Will you want to take advice from a 350lb trainer in term of how to stay in shape? I certainly wouldn't
More exactly, would I want an out of shape and overweight or obese trainer? (It's possible, just barely, to weigh 350 and not be those things, depending on other factors). But no, of course not.
But this is a false equivalency. I would absolutely not care if my trainer USED to be overweight and out of shape. In fact it might be an ADVANTAGE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981
This particular counselor has cheated on her husband, she is now divorced.
Let me ask you this very simple question, What makes her advice more credible and valuable than men and women who have successful happy marriages? This whole thing is a joke!
What matters is whether she has learned from the experience and acknowledges her legitimate responsibility and guilt and if she's currently in a relationship, is it a healthy one? But you have no way to evaluate that anyhow, so let it go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981
This counselor is a cheater of course she told my brother in law to forgive himself. All she did is make my sister feel guilty. Now my sister believes it is HER fault that her husband cheated!!!
How can you "fix" a cheater just by communicating better?! How?
If you are accurately representing the situation, she needs a different counselor because this one is an idiot. I get that. I agree with that. It is possible that your advice or Mom's advice would be better. However, the best response to this situation is to change counselors for one who is worth the $$ spent, not to paint marriage counseling as a universal scam.
If your sister doesn't have the spine to make a change, you can't do it for her. Just keep loving her and being present for her.
More exactly, would I want an out of shape and overweight or obese trainer? (It's possible, just barely, to weigh 350 and not be those things, depending on other factors). But no, of course not.
But this is a false equivalency. I would absolutely not care if my trainer USED to be overweight and out of shape. In fact it might be an ADVANTAGE.
What matters is whether she has learned from the experience and acknowledges her legitimate responsibility and guilt and if she's currently in a relationship, is it a healthy one? But you have no way to evaluate that anyhow, so let it go.
If you are accurately representing the situation, she needs a different counselor because this one is an idiot. I get that. I agree with that. It is possible that your advice or Mom's advice would be better. However, the best response to this situation is to change counselors for one who is worth the $$ spent, not to paint marriage counseling as a universal scam.
If your sister doesn't have the spine to make a change, you can't do it for her. Just keep loving her and being present for her.
Maybe this counselor just reflected back what both people feel in the marriage. It would probably be more helpful for your sister to have individual counseling now, rather than couples therapy. I believe she needs to just have an identity of her own.
Quite likely that is at least some of what is going on here. It's possible that the sister had her own feelings reflected back and the reflection just bounced because she can't hear it right now. Many things could be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper12
I wonder if marriage counselors who are divorced, are more likely to promote divorce as a means of solving a problem? And those who are religious, may encourage other values, like staying together for children.
It's a tendency, I'm sure, although, I think it has more to do with attitudes toward divorce. If divorce is taboo / unthinkable then it becomes less so once you are divorced despite those convictions. On the other hand if you thought divorce wasn't a big deal you will find out otherwise when you have one. On the other hand if the reason for the divorce was to escape an abusive relationship you might think it well worth it. On the other hand ...
My point being there is not hard and fast conclusion to be drawn from the fact of someone's involvement in a divorce.
Just as with every profession, there are people who are good at their job, and people who perform poorly. This particular counselor, if she admitted to cheating on her own husband... Well, either she was a "bad communicator" with him, or "people change, it was really no one's fault", I would say she is unqualified to be a marriage counselor, regardless of what piece of paper she has hanging on her wall. Marriage is hard. There are times you want to strangle your partner, or cheat, or be dishonest with them. Cheating on your spouse is a failure of the highest order, because it means you couldn't talk about what you were lacking with your spouse, there was a lack of trust between both parties, and/or it was meant as some sort of retaliation for some perceived failure, etc. This particular counselor didn't follow her advice in her own life, making her a hypocrite, and I'd have a hard time listening to someone with that kind of character flaw, especially in her chosen line of work. I think I'd advise your sister to seek help from someone else.
I used to wonder the same thing. I dated a guy who was a hardcore drug addict, narcissist, and pervert who was estranged from his father. His father's career: family counselor.
Maybe dealing with difficult relationships yourself makes it easier to give advice that will prevent others from going wrong where you did. After all, what does someone with a perfect relationship or perfect family know about dealing with heartbreak and disappointment?
Some marriage counselors aren't married. Others are divorced twice or unhappily married. Is this who you want to pay for advice? Would you take fitness tips from a 350-pound personal trainer who just had bypass surgery?
lily, you don't have to be "expert" at something yourself in order to teach or coach others to an expert level.
Look at this way, most NFL coaches never played in the NFL themselves - they simply weren't good enough or "expert" enough.
You simply do not always have to have achieved a certain level of success to be able to help others achieve it for themselves.
And sometimes, having failed at a marriage gives a marriage counselor more empathy and insight into the realities and struggles involved in marriage - something they can definitely learn from and go forward to teach others about.
In the case of your sister and BIL, I'd say they need INDIVIDUAL counseling first, before they ever try marriage counseling.
In my experience, people who are flexible and tolerant are those who get along with others the best. People who are unbending and ridged have problems with relationships - they will divorce someone with a quickness due to any one infraction from a long list of "things not allowed".With that said, people who "cheat" might be doing so because the other person in a relationship can't take care of the other person's needs. People might prefer to not discuss these problems with friends/relatives, but will do so with a therapist. Allowing "cheating" and reaching a "compromise" might be the best solution in some cases. (Flexibility)And an older person might have a marriage which is good 70% of the time, but not perfect. The person might have a difficult time finding another mate if divorced. And might feel that "something" is better than "nothing".So just because you would get divorced with a quickness in the same situation, that does not mean other people feel the same. Staying married might be a better solution for some.
In my experience, people who are flexible and tolerant are those who get along with others the best. People who are unbending and ridged have problems with relationships - they will divorce someone with a quickness due to any one infraction from a long list of "things not allowed".With that said, people who "cheat" might be doing so because the other person in a relationship can't take care of the other person's needs. People might prefer to not discuss these problems with friends/relatives, but will do so with a therapist. Allowing "cheating" and reaching a "compromise" might be the best solution in some cases. (Flexibility)And an older person might have a marriage which is good 70% of the time, but not perfect. The person might have a difficult time finding another mate if divorced. And might feel that "something" is better than "nothing".So just because you would get divorced with a quickness in the same situation, that does not mean other people feel the same. Staying married might be a better solution for some.
No, people don't cheat because their partner doesn't meet their "needs". Partners cheat because they are dogs, narcissistic and don't give a darn about the feelings of their partner. I don't see why in the world a wife would have to communicate to her husband that cheating with other women was a problem for her. The counselors have little incentive to "fix" a problem. Give me $200.00 an hour until I fix the problem? Well, if I were a cheater in my marriage/relationship, I would probably be a cheater in my business practices. It is whatever "feels" good to me the deserving. Also, age doesn't seem to be an issue in finding a new mate. People stay in the relationships because they are co-dependent or financially dependent. A marriage good only 70% of the time isn't worth the effort.
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