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And so Elliot Rodger's plan already is predictably backfiring on his male peers. Why do women seem eager to exaggerate the negatives of socially awkward men? Is that just an American thing?
I don't think that at all; I'm just remarking on the fact that her "creep radar" seems to weed out unattractive and socially awkward guys -- most of whom are NOT dangerous -- but doesn't pick up on criminals, sex offenders and abusers. Calls into question what ladies really value in a man, wouldn't you say?
As for Bundy, he's really the poster-child for why socially inept men are not the ones you need to worry about. The true predators are expert mimics and manipulators of human behavior. Ann Rule herself (a female friend who was fooled by Bundy for many years) said that he never missed a thank-you note, a friendly call on her birthday, an offer to walk her to her car while they were working together in a shady part of town, etc. He was good-looking, charming, and at least presented a facade of being successful and upwardly-mobile (he actually flunked out of school several times and had trouble holding a stable job). Yet women are scared of the guy who stammers or has trouble making eye contact.
As for the guy in the grocery "not respecting your relationship" -- I worked in a grocery, and knew many nice little small-town Christian girls who gave out their numbers to random dudes who flagged them down in the store, then "hung out as friends" for a while, then broke up with their current significant other when he (or the other guy) found out and gave them an ultimatum. So I think that little caveat is mostly about looks and social desirability as well.
And who says you'd "never find Brad Pitt" in that position? He's good-looking and rich, so he can't possibly be a psycho? Kinda proving my point for me, there.
A lot was made of Bundy being attractive and socially graceful. The kind of twisted **** Ted Bundy was had nothing to do with looks. Those descriptors were true enough, but they gave him a means of getting close to people, they weren't the reason he did what he did. In addition, when he was killing people, I think the media still expected bad guys to look and act like Charles Manson, although even Manson had periods when he could be somewhat presentable. My point is, Bundy's "looks" seemed to answer some unanswerable questions and became part of a mythology around him.
My other point would be that bad actors who can convince people they're safe to be around, generally do that. It gives them access to victims and it may feed into a delusion that the victim is asking for their mistreatment by being cooperative while the perpetrator is pretending to be something he or she is not. Being decent looking can help the person run his or her scam.
Those who would have a difficult time engaging people for whatever reason use some other kind of means to get access to people. They get access to people through a job or some other legitimate seeming ruse. Their connection isn't personal, but it's still a connection.
It is easier for any attractive person, male or female, to charm and scam people. Women do it all the time to wealthy men. They tend not to be serial killers but they fool men with their looks in order to get something they want.
A certain group of socially inept guys nerd culture guys seem to automatically think anyone who isn't like them is bad, brutish, or inferior. If they see a woman they want with a non-nerdy guy, especially if he is attractive, they make up things about him. He must be dumb, mean, maybe a criminal or an abuser. ???? Wow, they know this just by looking at him, or not. One guy I knew just assumed my boyfriend was a "jerk", because women "like you" only go for loser guys "like that". My BF was very nice, and the Nice Guy saying those things was the jerk. But you had apologists for him saying he is just socially awkward and frustrated so he should get away with harassing me, and he was just "teasing" and giving me a hard time because he likes me. This guy was maybe thirty five years old. !!!... I'm with Arthur Chu, they have to just grow up.
And so Elliot Rodger's plan already is predictably backfiring on his male peers. Why do women seem eager to exaggerate the negatives of socially awkward men? Is that just an American thing?
Women would rather not receive attention from socially awkward/non-desirable men. Women are raised in Western cultures to believe that the world, and everything in it, should conform itself to them, their preferences, and their ideas about personal comfort at all times. (The environment should conform itself to them, rather than the other way around).
Men, on the other hand, are encouraged to have self-esteem, take the chance and ask out that cute girl, etc., while also being inundated with pop cultural depictions of the nerdy guy eventually getting the hot chick. So they shower women with aforementioned unwanted attention.
In order to try and browbeat socially undesirable men into leaving them alone, women are trying to create a culture that is SO intolerant of them and their old-school chivalrous, non-alpha-male/hyper-masculine ways that they will go away and hide and only ever approach their own kind. (Read, old/fat chicks).
That clear things up at all?
Also, just to be clear, I doubt very much that Rodger gave a flying **** how his actions would affect his male peers.
Those descriptors were true enough, but they gave him a means of getting close to people, they weren't the reason he did what he did.
No one's saying otherwise; the point is not that Bundy's good looks or social acumen made him dangerous, or even that all men who HAVE good looks and social acumen should be considered dangerous. It's that the truly dangerous men -- the abusers, the rapists, the serial killers -- tend to be psychopaths who are well-versed in human behavior. They know how to blend in, how to gain your trust, how to make you like them. Focusing women's fears on those who seem obviously "off" in some way (such as those with poor or underdeveloped social skills) is a poor strategy for protecting them. And, of course, if you simply tell them to avoid walking alone at night, don't go off alone with strangers, etc., you'll be accused of being a rape culture apologist.
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If they see a woman they want with a non-nerdy guy, especially if he is attractive, they make up things about him. He must be dumb, mean, maybe a criminal or an abuser. ????
That's ridiculous. These men believe that women choose abusive men over them because they see it happen over and over again. How many women do you see with men who are abusive, controlling, insanely jealous, can't stay out of jail, etc.? And how many women do you see, on the other hand, with men significantly less attractive than they are? Our culture prizes looks over character -- which is fine, to a point, if people would just admit that fact. But we find it too unpalatable, so we have to denigrate the social undesirables even further by making them out to be "bad" or "dangerous" people. In fact the dangerous ones are the ones you'd never suspect.
Women would rather not receive attention from socially awkward/non-desirable men. Women are raised in Western cultures to believe that the world, and everything in it, should conform itself to them, their preferences, and their ideas about personal comfort at all times. (The environment should conform itself to them, rather than the other way around).
Men, on the other hand, are encouraged to have self-esteem, take the chance and ask out that cute girl, etc., while also being inundated with pop cultural depictions of the nerdy guy eventually getting the hot chick. So they shower women with aforementioned unwanted attention.
In order to try and browbeat socially undesirable men into leaving them alone, women are trying to create a culture that is SO intolerant of them and their old-school chivalrous, non-alpha-male/hyper-masculine ways that they will go away and hide and only ever approach their own kind. (Read, old/fat chicks).
That clear things up at all?
Also, just to be clear, I doubt very much that Rodger gave a flying **** how his actions would affect his male peers.
He supposedly tried to recruit men into similar actions and said he wanted to incite anger against women, for some presumed benefit to men. Although obviously he was very much into himself.
Anyway, other than the second paragraph, I don't know about the rest. I've heard that more "old-school" behavior is typical (and acceptable?) in England, and Elliot Rodger himself wondered aloud about that.
In order to try and browbeat socially undesirable men into leaving them alone, women are trying to create a culture that is SO intolerant of them and their old-school chivalrous, non-alpha-male/hyper-masculine ways that they will go away and hide and only ever approach their own kind. (Read, old/fat chicks).
Well that says a lot. And I resent that as an old chick, as I'm sure many "fat chicks" do as well. We don't want guys like that either, so they don't even have to bother approaching grannies or tubbies.
That's ridiculous. These men believe that women choose abusive men over them because they see it happen over and over again. How many women do you see with men who are abusive, controlling, insanely jealous, can't stay out of jail, etc.? And how many women do you see, on the other hand, with men significantly less attractive than they are? Our culture prizes looks over character -- which is fine, to a point, if people would just admit that fact. But we find it too unpalatable, so we have to denigrate the social undesirables even further by making them out to be "bad" or "dangerous" people. In fact the dangerous ones are the ones you'd never suspect.
Do you assume that every man who has a girlfriend or wife is abusive, controlling, insanely jealous, can't stay out of jail, etc.?
If not every man, then what percentage of men are that way?
No one's saying otherwise; the point is not that Bundy's good looks or social acumen made him dangerous, or even that all men who HAVE good looks and social acumen should be considered dangerous. It's that the truly dangerous men -- the abusers, the rapists, the serial killers -- tend to be psychopaths who are well-versed in human behavior. They know how to blend in, how to gain your trust, how to make you like them. Focusing women's fears on those who seem obviously "off" in some way (such as those with poor or underdeveloped social skills) is a poor strategy for protecting them. And, of course, if you simply tell them to avoid walking alone at night, don't go off alone with strangers, etc., you'll be accused of being a rape culture apologist.
That's ridiculous. These men believe that women choose abusive men over them because they see it happen over and over again. How many women do you see with men who are abusive, controlling, insanely jealous, can't stay out of jail, etc.? And how many women do you see, on the other hand, with men significantly less attractive than they are? Our culture prizes looks over character -- which is fine, to a point, if people would just admit that fact. But we find it too unpalatable, so we have to denigrate the social undesirables even further by making them out to be "bad" or "dangerous" people. In fact the dangerous ones are the ones you'd never suspect.
Did these women really chose an abuser over them? Did they approach these women and get turned down? You cannot say that someone you don't even know chose an abuser over you because they never met you. You cannot say that someone you never even spoke to did so either because you never even spoke to them. Women who end up in abusive relationships are usually broken in some way. It's not that they're attacted to abusive men. It's that they don't think they deserve better and if no one better is asking that beleif is reinforced.
By the time I graduated from high school, I knew I was invisible. I knew no one wanted me because I wasn't pretty enough. I dated some jerks because they were the only ones asking me out. I didn't have other options. After having several guys I liked not give me the time of day and 3 consecutive boyfriends dump me for someone prettier, where do you think my self esteem was? In settle for mode. I knew I had to settle or live my life alone. People wonder why I married dh after only knowing him 6 weeks. Answer: HE WANTED to marry me. That was intoxicating after being invisible for so long.
Not that I'm the one these guys fixate on because I was never pretty. I was invisible to them too. I find it interesting that they are so selective on who they want and yet cry foul if they percieve women to be selective.
Edited to add: Dh is not physically abusive. I didn't mean to imply he was abusive. He just likes to crawl into a bottle and he's not very nice when he does.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-02-2014 at 01:27 PM..
Do you assume that every man who has a girlfriend or wife is abusive, controlling, insanely jealous, can't stay out of jail, etc.?
If not every man, then what percentage of men are that way?
Obviously, outside of one minority group, only a small percentage of men spends much time in jail. I think most men have some controlling tendencies, which can easily be spun into "abusive" by a resentful person.
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Women who end up in abusive relationships are usually broken in some way. It's not that they're attacted to abusive men. It's that they don't think they deserve better and if no one better is asking that beleif is reinforced.
