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All this "people with bpd are evil misanthropic people" really gets annoying. Yeah, their anger may be fierce, but you don't need bpd for that. Research or be quiet.
This. But it is confusing because she is also a very educated, intellectual woman who had a successful career as an attorney until she retired eleven years ago. It's almost as though there was a magic bullet that applied only to her professional life but not any other area.
I think a lot of people who present a professional, polite face to the world have different ways of acting when they're just communicating with family. Did she know you were listening to the phone call? My MIL and my mother are both known to say racist things from time to time...my mother will hint around what she's trying to say until she makes it really obvious, and my MIL will just come right out and say it. Neither of them behave like this around other people, only relatives. Sometimes they don't even realize they're doing it. It doesn't make it right and in a perfect world, people who acted like that wouldn't be able to blend in and keep good jobs, but they're good at pretending around other people.
I think a lot of people who present a professional, polite face to the world have different ways of acting when they're just communicating with family. Did she know you were listening to the phone call? My MIL and my mother are both known to say racist things from time to time...my mother will hint around what she's trying to say until she makes it really obvious, and my MIL will just come right out and say it. Neither of them behave like this around other people, only relatives. Sometimes they don't even realize they're doing it. It doesn't make it right and in a perfect world, people who acted like that wouldn't be able to blend in and keep good jobs, but they're good at pretending around other people.
She said it to my husband. While he was talking on the phone with me in the room, I did not hear her end of the conversation. My husband had trouble telling me exactly what she said before he hung up. Maybe she said it because she knew it would upset him.
Um, no. You went off on a soapbox, it seems. I didn't mention the insanity defense at all, and I neither said nor implied that an adult isn't responsible for his/her actions. However, many people automatically judge mentally ill people for exactly that: being mentally ill. That isn't the person's fault. How they go about treating it (if they do) is. But getting mental health treatment is much more difficult than getting treatment for physical health conditions. One is societal stigmas ie the attitude that people with mental illness are flawed stupid or crazy thus they do not want to admit to having a problem. And I'm sure no one around here believes that Another issue is that mental health treatment in America is severely underfunded compared to other types of public health programs. And since mentally ill individuals have difficulty keeping a job, they often have no money and no insurance. Yet another issue is that their illness in itself makes them deny they have a problem in the first place or saps their motivation to get help. And yet another problem is that insurance companies don't cover mental health treatment as well as physical health. I've dealt with that problem personally. I'm not saying MIL isn't a jerk. She probably is. But I don't judge people until I have walked a mile in their mocassins. And believe me, those mental illness mocassins is a tough road in which to trudge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45
Understood about 'judging', but[b] you're still unclear about the "responsibility" part and what, if anything, you think mental illness "entitles" you to.Do you think that having any sort of 'mental illness' also relieves you of the consequences of your actions… whether it's criminal behaviors, or simply 'anti-social' ones like being insulting, manipulative, selfish, deceitful, etc.?
No, I'm perfectly clear about responsibility. You're just not reading my posts. So why don't you try that first before beginning yet another rant.
Yet another poster bashing someone with mental illness. Mental illness is no different than physical illness. It requires treatment, just like someone who has diabetes or high blood pressure. People who have it are not stupid, flawed, or crazy. And people who supposedly don't have mental illness (such as yourself) are certainly not angels either. I suspect that those individuals who don't have mental illness might behave worse than those who do I agree with OP that people with BPD can be experts at laying on guilt trips and manipulating people. My mom was diagnosed BPD and behaved like it to a T. As a result, I was quite estranged from her for many years. She has since passed away. I did my best not to judge her for it, though. That's just the way she was.
I do get what you're saying, but my MIL has a lot of money. The financial aspect of seeking treatment for her mental illness is not really a concern that factors into her refusal to accept the diagnosis and get help.
In general, yes, mental health treatments should be a lot more accessible than they already are.
Listen, BPDs can be nightmares, but yelling racist carp is NOT a symptom.
Theres a good chance she's a nasty bigot too.
Exactly.There is, after all, a common sense diagnosis that a layman can make, like "she's just a nasty b-word."
It is not necessary to slap a psych DX on someone who you find loathsome or impossible to get along with.
It's like I said in my OP--many mental health professionals smirk at a BPD diagnosis. Call it a "throwaway" diagnosis; one to be given when nothin' else fits but they have to enter in some DX key for the insurance companies to pay. Or to satisfy the client that their IS something wrong with them. (Believe it or not: many people got to shrinks in the HOPE of getting dx'd with a psychiatric disorder.)
Like I said, I work around therapists. I have even heard one of them say about BPD "It's a bullsh** diagnosis that we throw at 'em when we have nothing else." And that "..everyone at sometime in their lives has committed behavior that could get them diagnosed with BPD."
How about this: Ten bucks and my left nut say I could meet anyone of you people, talk with you for thirty minutes, and then invent what I think is a plausible DX. One that, if I sent you to, say, ten different shrinks, telling them in advance that you had it and I wanted them to treat you, I bet maybe six or seven would agree with me! And I would hazard to guess that I would most likely use BPD than any other dx if I had to do this. So you get my point, here.
This includes the OP. LOL.
See, People are often quick to want others that rub them the wrong way to be labeled. It justifies their opinions and animosity towards them. Sorta like makin' everything all nice and legal.
But, alas: I found nothing in the OP quotes from the MIL that even hinted as justifying a dx of BPD. All I saw was some self-righteous anger, with perhaps a dash of anti-semitism thrown in.
Last edited by Der Vogel; 03-04-2015 at 02:59 PM..
See, People are often quick to want others that rub them the wrong way to be labeled. It justifies their opinions and animosity towards them. Sorta like makin' everything all nice and legal.
If I didn't already know she had a diagnosis, I would just assume that my MIL is monumentally selfish and indignant. I mentioned her diagnosis because I figured that I should handle this a certain way in light of her mental illness. Because I know that she mentally ill, even if she won't accept it, I think I am more tolerant of her behavior than I would be otherwise.
Do you feel that BPD is a bull**** diagnosis? It may very well be over-diagnosed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Vogel
But, alas: I found nothing in the OP quotes from the MIL that even hinted as justifying a dx of BPD. All I saw was some self-righteous anger, with perhaps a dash of anti-semitism thrown in.
I thought that BPDs are notorious for self-righteous, angry outbursts when they perceive a slight--in this case, her son's refusal to visit for Easter. Common triggers can be the perception of abandonment (real or imagined) and rejection of any sort.
Last edited by Ilovemymutts; 03-04-2015 at 02:49 PM..
Real, legitimate BPD's (probably about one-third of those DX's with it) are actually closer to what I would call "watered-down sociopaths." LOL Or what I like to call "sociopaths with smaller balls."
They tend to exaact their revenge and deal with people whom they are in conflict with by passive-aggressive means, not up-front, in-your-face rants and racial slurs. They will be your best friend one minute and then you will find out they went to your boss behind closed doors and told them a false story about you in an attempt to get you fired. All this, for, maybe disagreeing with them about who should have won the Best Actor Oscar last year.
And, yes, I DO believe BPD to be a "throw-away" DX. (just like Narcisstic Personality Disorder.) --- If you look at the criteria for it in the DSM-V you will find them simply too nebulous, and ones that I bet you would yourself admit as having harbored at least once or twice in your life.
If there were no such things as Insurance companies and HMO's paying us docs for Trx I do not think BPD would exist as a clinical dx.
Not to say some people who are dx's with it don't have some sort of legitimate emotional problem. Probably about half of them..no, maybe a third of them do. But more often then not these people are simply acting-out from being previously hurt.
Last edited by Der Vogel; 03-04-2015 at 03:12 PM..
If there were no such things as Insurance companies and HMO's paying us docs for Trx I do not think BPD would exist as a clinical dx.
I agree with this. The chief complaint the DSM gets is that it tries to turn regular (though not necessarily good) behaviors into mental illnesses. But you hit the nail on the head- they primarily do that for billing purposes. That's why each diagnosis comes with a diagnostic code. I imagine if you were treating someone with the kind of behavior the MIL displayed and nothing else, like bipolar, could explain it, then they would assign some arbitrary diagnosis based on otherwise undefined sets of symptoms. The thing is, though, the DSM-V includes lots of opportunities to diagnose someone with "other" or "unspecified" variations of disorders. These diagnoses apply when someone meets some of the criteria for a disorder, but not enough for a full diagnosis. To me it's much better way of saying "This person has some problem behaviors, but not enough worth labeling them with solid diagnosis."
I also just have a problem with the term "personality disorder" in general because personality is often thought of as what kind of person you are, so saying you have a personality disorder comes off like there is something wrong with who you are as a person. I would prefer it much more if they would categorize these as "behavioral disorders" or something so the name gets the point across: there is something wrong with how this person is behaving. I think it would be less stigmatizing for people diagnosed with that. Imagine if someone told you there was something wrong with your personality. You'd be offended. If they said the problem was your behavior, you might be more inclined to seek treatment for said behavior.
Even saying things like "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "I think you are confused about my intentions" makes her claim that you are invalidating her feelings.
Right now, my husband wants nothing to do with her. All he's been able to express about this incident is that she's crossed the line and she's out of control. This is causing him a lot of pain because she's his mother and he does care about her well-being, which is why it's so frustrating for him that she refuses to get help and his siblings enable her and thus keep her mired in mental illness.
Your husband is right - have as little as possible to do with this person.
He is having to accept the fact that his mother is mentally ill. And unfortunately, there is no real treatment available or that has been shown to be effective with BPDs.
All you can really do with a person with BPD is draw your boundaries out very clearly to them (in this case, "You are not allowed to make racist comments about my wife") as well as the ramifications if they don't respect your boundaries ("If you make racist comments about my wife, we will not visit you or even have a conversation with you until you apologize - and you need to know that every time you make a comment like this, you are jeopardizing our relationship permanently, because this horrible level of disrespect is such a serious issue to us that we don't feel that it should be tolerated.")
Your husband can't control his mother or his siblings - but he can control himself and his responses to them. He is going to have to clarify his boundaries and then stick to them. It's going to be hard but I suspect that eventually at least some of the siblings will see the wisdom to his approach.
I am not one who just willy nilly says, "That person is TOXIC - banish them from the kingdom!" but your MIL is so far out of line, it's obvious that your husband needs to put some serious distance between you and your family and her bizarre and horrible behavior.
I feel for you and your husband - but you've got to do it.
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Another issue is that mental health treatment in America is severely underfunded compared to other types of public health programs. And since mentally ill individuals have difficulty keeping a job, they often have no money and no insurance. Yet another issue is that their illness in itself makes them deny they have a problem in the first place or saps their motivation to get help. And yet another problem is that insurance companies don't cover mental health treatment as well as physical health. I've dealt with that problem personally. I'm not saying MIL isn't a jerk. She probably is. But I don't judge people until I have walked a mile in their mocassins. And believe me, those mental illness mocassins is a tough road in which to trudge.
