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I have some difficulty grasping envy too. Sure, I can understand seeing someone who has something in their life and thinking, "wow, that would be nice if I had that." But I don't "get" that kind of envy that makes you resent or feel angry toward that other person.
There are plenty of people who have:
some physical trait I wish I'd had
some ability I wish I had
some material resources I wish I had
some very nice relationship that appears to function better than a relationship I have
But I never move beyond "wow, that would be nice" or "hey that's something I could shoot for in terms of a goal." I never get to the point where I hate that person for having something I don't have, or feeling like I'm entitled to have that, and resentful that I don't have it.
I tend to believe (correctly or not) that people who have that kind of envy, the entitled, resentful envy, are really egocentric and have some inflated idea of themselves. how else could they actually feel like "I deserve that!" or "I hate that person for having what I don't have!"
I can't relate to survivor guilt. I haven't really experienced the kind of tragedy that might bring it on, so I'm not suggesting I couldn't experience it, but it doesn't make sense to me. I understand the dynamic on paper, but sitting here thinking about it I think I'd be more relieved than guilty about surviving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
You can be both. Relief is the first wave. Survivor guilt is more lingering, shows up later, and comes off and on. A weird sort of "why am I alive and they aren't". Or "could I have done something to save those people" when intellectually, I know I couldn't have.
I think it's definitely one of those things you must experience to understand.
I feel like Kathryn when she weighed in on grief - I am afraid of sounding like a psychopath on this one.
I am the survivor of the AIDS epidemic which began in the U.S. in the 1980's, and among the dead are my best friend and others friends and acquaintances as well - and, of course, hundreds of thousands of others. Given that within the two year period on either side of the identification of the emerging health problem I had slept with people who were, unknown to them, already infected and died within a year or two after I had had sex with them, it was deemed medically impossible that I could not be infected considering the number of repeated contacts and the variety of sexual acts. I enrolled in a medical study, and as the years rolled on more and more people died. Then two definitive tests were discovered for ascertaining if a person were infected with the virus.
I was not. I was what! The study manager was incredulous. I was retested and retested with both tests and my contacts with those deceased sexual partners re-discussed again. In the end, almost in exasperation, I was told what was already obvious at this point - you are not positive! And the manager exclaimed, "No one has that much luck!"
This was about thirty years ago. I did not and have not in the years since felt what is called "survivor's guilt." I was thankful most certainly, but for many years it never occurred to me that it was anything more than inexplicable luck....and like the study manager, I found it hard to believe, but nevertheless there it was.
With thousands dying, there were many incredulous remarks about me - "How could you not be infected.....are they sure?"
Well, yes "they" were sure, and how I got that way nobody knows. So, for me that was the end of it. There was no explanation whatsoever. Why do tens of thousands of men and women get infected, sometimes after only one exposure and I not?
I am totally unaware of ever having felt any guilt about my situation.
Perhaps fifteen or twenty years into the American epidemic a study was done in NYC which discovered that about 5% (I think that was the percentage) of the white male participants were found to lack what is in simple language called the "docking mechanism," (a particular type of aberration in C5 blood cells) in their system which the HIV virus needs in order to insert itself into the body's immune system. My assumption when I read about the study was that this could be the only response to the study manager's past remark, "No one has that much luck!"
If that were the explanation, then it should simply tweak the situation of survivor guilt. Why do you have this peculiar exception, when hundreds of thousands don't? (More research has been done since I read about the first, and some estimates are on 1%.) So, again, that's and awful, awful, awful lot of luck.
But my own feeling remains the same, it is a truly bizarre piece of luck for which I'm not responsible. Apropos the original comment by homina12, I do have the experience, yet I too am puzzled by survivor guilt.
I have some difficulty grasping envy too. Sure, I can understand seeing someone who has something in their life and thinking, "wow, that would be nice if I had that." But I don't "get" that kind of envy that makes you resent or feel angry toward that other person.
There are plenty of people who have:
some physical trait I wish I'd had
some ability I wish I had
some material resources I wish I had
some very nice relationship that appears to function better than a relationship I have
But I never move beyond "wow, that would be nice" or "hey that's something I could shoot for in terms of a goal." I never get to the point where I hate that person for having something I don't have, or feeling like I'm entitled to have that, and resentful that I don't have it.
I tend to believe (correctly or not) that people who have that kind of envy, the entitled, resentful envy, are really egocentric and have some inflated idea of themselves. how else could they actually feel like "I deserve that!" or "I hate that person for having what I don't have!"
Here's what I think drives envy: there is a deep-down fear in the envious person that other people will abandon or consider them "lesser" (and perhaps treat them as such) in favor of whoever has the trait/possession you are envious of. For example, if someone is a better dancer than I am, I might fear that everyone will flock to that person and forget about or ignore, or maybe even disdain or think mockingly of me.
I also think your last sentence hit on something, the fear that maybe the other person really is more deserving or "better".
In either case, the manifestation of the fear is anger/resentment, and sometimes an effort to tear down the other person to establish one's status ("sure she's a decent dancer, but her footwork is atrocious").
I have some difficulty grasping envy too. Sure, I can understand seeing someone who has something in their life and thinking, "wow, that would be nice if I had that." But I don't "get" that kind of envy that makes you resent or feel angry toward that other person.
There are plenty of people who have:
some physical trait I wish I'd had
some ability I wish I had
some material resources I wish I had
some very nice relationship that appears to function better than a relationship I have
But I never move beyond "wow, that would be nice" or "hey that's something I could shoot for in terms of a goal." I never get to the point where I hate that person for having something I don't have, or feeling like I'm entitled to have that, and resentful that I don't have it.
I tend to believe (correctly or not) that people who have that kind of envy, the entitled, resentful envy, are really egocentric and have some inflated idea of themselves. how else could they actually feel like "I deserve that!" or "I hate that person for having what I don't have!"
I agree, and I have known a numberof people like that. It does not seem to be a healthy way to live, because you will ALWAYS find people who have things you want and don't have if that is your mindset.
Here's what I think drives envy: there is a deep-down fear in the envious person that other people will abandon or consider them "lesser" (and perhaps treat them as such) in favor of whoever has the trait/possession you are envious of. For example, if someone is a better dancer than I am, I might fear that everyone will flock to that person and forget about or ignore, or maybe even disdain or think mockingly of me.
I also think your last sentence hit on something, the fear that maybe the other person really is more deserving or "better".
In either case, the manifestation of the fear is anger/resentment, and sometimes an effort to tear down the other person to establish one's status ("sure she's a decent dancer, but her footwork is atrocious").
Haha, sounds by your sn as if that could be from real life.
I watched the 25th Anniversary presentation of Phantom of the Opera on Netflix. There were a lot of nasty comments on the site about the singing of the actress who played Christine, and I'm thinking, "but yeah, there she is on stage at Royal Albert Hall, and you're NOT."
When someone posts about a problem, and people respond with "I'm sorry you're going through this" or "I'm sorry this happened to you" before providing advice, feedback, opinions, etc. Or worse, they say "I'm sorry this is happening to you" and then don't even give anything constructive.
I kind of feel like it's an artificial attempt to try to show empathy, but it seems to make no sense. If people post a problem, like something frustrating, they either want A. actual advice, B. validation ("Ugh! I hate that too!") or a combination of those two. They don't want someone who is not responsible for their stress apologizing to them!
If someone posts about something stressful (either here or on other social media) why would you say "I'm sorry" unless you're the one who caused their stress?
I just saw someone post on our neighborhood watch page about something that happened to their property that was criminal, and many people just posted "I don't have any advice, but I'm sorry that happened to you." Great, so why did you even bother responding? To me, it looks like "I have nothing to add like actual validation or actual advice, but I need people to see what a nice person I am. Me. Me. Me."
Saying "I'm sorry" when you've done nothing to someone doesn't make the person feel any better. It just makes you look like you're trying to be overly and artificially "nice." It's like empty empathy. Real empathy gives a person validation--when you're angry, upset, frustrated, and someone else says "Yes! I also HATE what that happens! That person who did that to you is terrible!" that validates your feelings and reminds you you're not alone. But to have someone ineffectually say "I'm sorry you're going through that" just makes me want to slap the person (figuratively of course).
I would never tell a person "I'm sorry" when they are going through something upsetting or stressful, unless I'm the one who caused that stress.
When someone posts about a problem, and people respond with "I'm sorry you're going through this" or "I'm sorry this happened to you" before providing advice, feedback, opinions, etc. Or worse, they say "I'm sorry this is happening to you" and then don't even give anything constructive.
I kind of feel like it's an artificial attempt to try to show empathy, but it seems to make no sense. If people post a problem, like something frustrating, they either want A. actual advice, B. validation ("Ugh! I hate that too!") or a combination of those two. They don't want someone who is not responsible for their stress apologizing to them!
If someone posts about something stressful (either here or on other social media) why would you say "I'm sorry" unless you're the one who caused their stress?
I just saw someone post on our neighborhood watch page about something that happened to their property that was criminal, and many people just posted "I don't have any advice, but I'm sorry that happened to you." Great, so why did you even bother responding? To me, it looks like "I have nothing to add like actual validation or actual advice, but I need people to see what a nice person I am. Me. Me. Me."
Saying "I'm sorry" when you've done nothing to someone doesn't make the person feel any better. It just makes you look like you're trying to be overly and artificially "nice." It's like empty empathy. Real empathy gives a person validation--when you're angry, upset, frustrated, and someone else says "Yes! I also HATE what that happens! That person who did that to you is terrible!" that validates your feelings and reminds you you're not alone. But to have someone ineffectually say "I'm sorry you're going through that" just makes me want to slap the person (figuratively of course).
I would never tell a person "I'm sorry" when they are going through something upsetting or stressful, unless I'm the one who caused that stress.
I think that's a fairly recent thing, a polite way of saying, "I really don't care but social convention demands I pretend that I do."
When someone posts about a problem, and people respond with "I'm sorry you're going through this" or "I'm sorry this happened to you" before providing advice, feedback, opinions, etc. Or worse, they say "I'm sorry this is happening to you" and then don't even give anything constructive.
I kind of feel like it's an artificial attempt to try to show empathy, but it seems to make no sense. If people post a problem, like something frustrating, they either want A. actual advice, B. validation ("Ugh! I hate that too!") or a combination of those two. They don't want someone who is not responsible for their stress apologizing to them!
...
Saying "I'm sorry" when you've done nothing to someone doesn't make the person feel any better. It just makes you look like you're trying to be overly and artificially "nice." It's like empty empathy. Real empathy gives a person validation--when you're angry, upset, frustrated, and someone else says "Yes! I also HATE what that happens! That person who did that to you is terrible!" that validates your feelings and reminds you you're not alone. But to have someone ineffectually say "I'm sorry you're going through that" just makes me want to slap the person (figuratively of course).
It's usually talk therapists who do this. I think it's a mind game to get you to open up more, to sympathize without sharing their own opinions, to avoid giving "unsolicited" advice (never mind the fact that you want advice), to be professionally detached, or some other psychological trick I know nothing about.
I don't know what their exact agenda is, but I've run into that behavior with talk therapists as a child. Every time, I walked out of their office feeling worse than I walked in. (Although in the 1980's and early 1990's, talk therapy was borderline medieval compared to how it is today.)
Or, in their defense, it could be just a language semantics issue. Kind of like saying "I'm sorry" at a funeral.
It's usually talk therapists who do this. I think it's a mind game to get you to open up more, to sympathize without sharing their own opinions, to avoid giving "unsolicited" advice (never mind the fact that you want advice), to be professionally detached, or some other psychological trick I know nothing about.
I don't know what their exact agenda is, but I've run into that behavior with talk therapists as a child. Every time, I walked out of their office feeling worse than I walked in. (Although in the 1980's and early 1990's, talk therapy was borderline medieval compared to how it is today.)
Or, in their defense, it could be just a language semantics issue. Kind of like saying "I'm sorry" at a funeral.
I don't know what therapists you've encountered, but I'm a therapist and I've worked with therapists for years. We are generally very careful about how we convey empathy, because saying something like "I'm sorry" or "I know how you feel" can be misinterpreted.
I don't know what therapists you've encountered, but I'm a therapist and I've worked with therapists for years. We are generally very careful about how we convey empathy, because saying something like "I'm sorry" or "I know how you feel" can be misinterpreted.
Well, I remember doing therapy when I was 9, and I recall hearing these things. Maybe I just didn't understand the nature of therapy, but I found them really weird. My immediate thoughts were: "OK, you're sorry, what now?"
I blame it on the time period. I'm pretty sure today's therapists would be more knowledgeable.
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