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As a woman, I'm agreeing you. I have seen these type women, and know their type well. They are out for "fun" without the possibility of consequences.
Neither does getting angry with the man and deciding to call it rape. Rape is a serious charge.
Excellent. I agree 100%!
You do realize that often, they are both impaired? Either drunk or drugged sex that happens between two stupid people with regrets in the morning.
I would say the majority.
So 1950s! Seriously, the world has changed, and not for the better.
How dare you suggest the woman should practice some personal responsibility in order to avoid unintended sexual experiences! Neither the woman or the man are doing this. Trusting people that you barely know is stupid, but in the name of "having a good time" or "having some fun", stupid is all too often front and center in such encounters.
I agree, but everyone needs to be doing the most they can to protect themselves if they don't want to end up like this.
What if neither can remember? What if it were drunk or drugged sex and both were in the same condition?
Frankly, how stupid does anyone have to be not be realize the possibilities these days, even in the 1970s, I knew better than what these present day women seem to know, of course, I worked to protect myself rather than relying on crying "victim".
Oh, well those type of women, the one's just asking to be raped. Of course, not those type of subhuman women, who actually enjoy being raped but just don't want to admit it. I'm interested how you know how those type of women think being the fine upstanding woman that all women would do well to model their behavior after?
Ok, if it can't be treated or cured, here is my solution. You rape, you die. Period.
A lot of states used to allow the death penalty for rape. Then SCOTUS called it cruel and unusual punishment, which is prohibited under the 8th Amendment of the Constitution, basically because dying for a crime in which you did not cause another death is excessive. So basically, the crime of rape isn't bad enough to warrant the death penalty. Even though some rape victims suffer so much extensive, even lifelong, trauma, that many would rather be dead and even attempt suicide. Rape victims, especially child victims who were raped for years in childhood, exhibit extremely self-destructive behaviors like cutting or have eating disorders.
I mean, I get it SCOTUS, but... some rapists truly can never be rehabilitated (I'd honestly argue most, you're probably unlikely to find a rapist who hasn't done it at least once before, even if never convicted or even reported). The second best thing is to lock them up forever.
So my experience that makes it tricky for me to speak to this, because I'm like, "Well, yes, BUT..."
I was 14, and all of a sudden I'd gone from ugly duckling to hot young teen. My Mom had given me a bunch of her um..."provocative clothing"...that no longer fit her, because she wanted my confidence and self esteem to get better. I was bored one night, and there was a parking lot carnival in town. It was completely my idea that Mom and I should go to the carnival. (I'd been watching the film, "The Lost Boys" and I thought Star was the coolest and wanted to be just like her. This was what was in my head.) So we put on our pretty clothes, I wore a long gypsy skirt and off we went.
We attracted the notice of a group of young Mexican men. It happens that they barely spoke English and were illegal immigrants from rural Mexico, in Northern VA to do construction work and send money home. The only reason this matters, is that there was a cultural disconnect. We ended up taking two of them home with us. I became more and more uncomfortable with how the night was going, I told the guy who was putting the make on me, "No" very firmly and pushed him away and tried to get up and leave. He became forceful with me. He'd been drinking (my Dad was a scary drunk) and I felt that if I insisted on fighting him, he'd seriously injure me and then have his way with me anyhow, so I stopped resisting and waited until it was over.
I have not felt deeply psychologically scarred, or traumatized, or anything by this...afterwards if anything, I felt rather as though I'd stepped in dog poo with a bare foot. Disgusted, yes, but I washed and put it behind me. I found out later that he was 28 years old. The guy my Mom had taken home and into her bed, she ended up marrying.
So from this I certainly did learn about letting things get to a certain point, and who you can't simply trust to stop when you say no, and a good few "what not to do" things...I would be a liar if I said it wasn't a learning experience. I have never been assaulted since then, so my precautions have perhaps been paying off, though I know it still could happen in any of a number of ways. That incident could have been prevented, by my choices or my Mom's choices, but I'm pretty sure that guy did not believe that what he did was rape. In his mind, if a sexy young woman makes eyes at you, and you get to the point where you're in her house with your hands on her, then she's fair game and nothing she can do should give you pause. His understanding of what consent means...and mine, then and now...not the same. Personally, the way I see it, if you learn some useful life lessons and you get to walk away from the experience without being beaten, maimed or killed, but merely feeling rather disgusted...well, you're luckier than some. I feel I gained some wisdom at a relatively low cost.
But that is how I have chosen to view MY experience. It doesn't give me any right to sit in judgment over anyone else's experience, or how they see it or how harmed they are or aren't by it, or what they do about it, or ANYTHING.
And if my choices since then have helped to keep me safe, there's an element of luck there too, that so far I haven't encountered one of the situations where NO amount of care or smarts would have changed things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam
Yeah. That. Remember the woman that was passed out drunk by a dumpster? One man raped her and two others saved her. Obviously, the problem is with the rapist, and only the rapist. The vast majority of men would have tried to help her or leave her alone. Only a rapist even thought about taking advantage of the situation.
That guy actually dragged her behind the dumpster. He didn't find her there, he put her there.
And that case speaks very loudly to the biggest issue I've got. The judge let him off so as "not to ruin his life." Clearly stating that any male's life is more important than any female's life. Period, end of story. Her experience was trivialized, and we all got to hear about his stupid swim team scores, like that matters.
I understand that sometimes it's dodgy to build a solid case, but in the Brock Turner case, they had witnesses and ample evidence. This wasn't some "he said/she said" matter. He dragged an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and assaulted her. And got a slap on the wrist! And all sorts of sympathy, like SHE was trying to ruin HIM. wtf??
It's like...ok, so it's difficult to prevent rape from ever happening...and it's difficult to prove when it does...but when it happens, and when there's a solid case, could we at LEAST get appropriate justice?
You're assuming that people lacking "street smarts" deserve scorn. It may be very common, perhaps human nature, to do that. But it still doesn't make it right. Besides, scorn's only proper target is toward the committer of a wrongful act or expression against another - not the recipient. Making naivite, gullibility, etc. into a standard of scorn-worthiness is not exactly helping the victim either. It's victim-blaming, pure and simple.
I think predators look for innocents, women who don't have a lot of experience, and then they target them.
Pedophiles also target their prey, looking for kids who don't have stable home lives and who have low self esteem.
When people criticize others who found themselves in harm's way, they are distancing themselves, as a coping mechanism. Doing so is not helpful in understanding the situation.
I told the guy who was putting the make on me, "No" very firmly and pushed him away and tried to get up and leave. He became forceful with me. He'd been drinking (my Dad was a scary drunk) and I felt that if I insisted on fighting him, he'd seriously injure me and then have his way with me anyhow, so I stopped resisting and waited until it was over.
See, what happened to you is commonly referred to as date rape. I believe the most common of all types of rape. Still wrong. Still criminal. He used force to get what he wanted. Many experts advise women to submit if they feel the situation will escalate into violence. Your safety is the paramount concern.
You blamed yourself. Exactly what we are discussing here.
Were your actions possibly contributory in the man having expectations of sex? Yes. But, a non-rapist would have allowed you to end the confrontation when you clearly and firmly said 'NO." Unfortunately, you encountered a rapist who took advantage of the situation.
I am sorry to hear about what happened to you. I am glad you were able to compartmentalize it and move forward with your life.
I remember in Freshman year of high school my gym teacher taught us some "safety techniques" to protect ourselves when someone tries to assault. I remember her stating it as more of an eventuality than a possibility, so I really paid attention.
However, the techniques were to:
1. Try to throw up, urinate, or defecate as your attacker is approaching you menacingly, in the hopes that these bodily functions would dissuade him from raping you.
2. If the puke, pee, and poop didn't work and he was still coming at you, you were to use the heel of your hand to push his nose into his face and then knee him in the groin and stomp on his instep. (Unfortunately, this technique usually works in movies but not so much in real life.)
3. Yell, "Fire!" repeatedly so some hero would come racing to your aid. (Presumably with a hose or a bucket of water?)
4. Carry a whistle.
5. Wear your hair short.
These are just the ones I remember. I don't think the boys had a similar instruction. If they did, I suppose, "Don't rape people" would be the only "tip."
A lot of states used to allow the death penalty for rape. Then SCOTUS called it cruel and unusual punishment, which is prohibited under the 8th Amendment of the Constitution, basically because dying for a crime in which you did not cause another death is excessive. So basically, the crime of rape isn't bad enough to warrant the death penalty. Even though some rape victims suffer so much extensive, even lifelong, trauma, that many would rather be dead and even attempt suicide. Rape victims, especially child victims who were raped for years in childhood, exhibit extremely self-destructive behaviors like cutting or have eating disorders.
I mean, I get it SCOTUS, but... some rapists truly can never be rehabilitated (I'd honestly argue most, you're probably unlikely to find a rapist who hasn't done it at least once before, even if never convicted or even reported). The second best thing is to lock them up forever.
SCOTUS didn't have a choice. What is considered cruel and inhumane depends on current society and current society is mostly moving away from the DP in general. Even for murder.
As to locking them up forever, California is one state that wants them placed in forensic mental hospitals after their sentence is up, if they are deemed to be a threat to others. I like that!
Thinking on the 'it's stupid to trust strangers' thing. Everyone is a stranger until you know them. So if I am all proper, what I was taught is that it is proper for a gentleman to pick me up, come in, meet my Dad, get a lecture, take me out, not rape me, have a nice time, and be home by whatever time.
So if as a teenager I follow this protocol and go exactly where allowed, the movie, and straight back home, he still has multiple chances to rape me.
I remember one guy ran out of gas. I called to say I'd be late due to this. My Dad was like 'shocker. Yeah. He ran out of gas totally by accident, sure'. And hung up. I burst out laughing.
And it was funny because yeah. He's no dummy. He ran out of gas to have a way to keep me longer, which was totally fine as he was out to attempt to SEDUCE, not rape. But if he did rape, what did I do wrong there?
What did my father do wrong? He should only have allowed dates at the home? Until what age? At some point I have to go into the world.............
That turned into a make-out session full of 'no, you still can't do that' complete fun and laughter - we were crazed for each other but I was saving that.
Sadly, I already knew at that age it could turn very different in an instant. Suddenly he could say no, kissing isn't enough. Take off your clothes. *pin me down* nothing I could do but try and fight, run. Against a stronger, faster person.
My bad, right?
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Neither the woman or the man are doing this. Trusting people that you barely know is stupid, but in the name of "having a good time" or "having some fun", stupid is all too often front and center in such encounters.
