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It seems more and more I hear about stories or see videos where someone refuses to identify or cooperate the police for simple traffic stops or suspicious behavior. What are these people really trying to accomplish? Do they actually have any legal ground to stand on?
I just don't see why if you're stopped for a simple traffic violation you would CAUSE the police to be suspicious of you, or if you're doing something already shady (like open carrying an assault rifle or shotgun, trespassing, or acting like you could be doing something illegal) you would want to instigate the situation further by not identifying or cooperating.
Are people that fearful of the police? I don't always like getting pulled over either, but hell, answer the questions politely and half the time they let you go with a simple warning. That or get arrested by trying to prove something??? Any thoughts? What are these people hoping to accomplish?
I think the sovereign citizen defense is beyond stupid. With that said, I live in a good ole boy community in Appalachia and I would never trust a police officer. FWIW, I'm an above average income white guy that looks like I came right off the golf course. They are there to protect themselves and their own image. If that happens to coincide with protective and serve, fine. If it doesn't, they'll be looking out for themselves first and foremost.
Even if you have a rogue/bad cop, the police industry will circle the wagons to protect their own, unless the abuse was so egregious that they don't want the publicity fight or there is relative proof of what is going on.
It seems more and more I hear about stories or see videos where someone refuses to identify or cooperate the police for simple traffic stops or suspicious behavior. What are these people really trying to accomplish? Do they actually have any legal ground to stand on?
I just don't see why if you're stopped for a simple traffic violation you would CAUSE the police to be suspicious of you, or if you're doing something already shady (like open carrying an assault rifle or shotgun, trespassing, or acting like you could be doing something illegal) you would want to instigate the situation further by not identifying or cooperating.
Are people that fearful of the police? I don't always like getting pulled over either, but hell, answer the questions politely and half the time they let you go with a simple warning. That or get arrested by trying to prove something??? Any thoughts? What are these people hoping to accomplish?
I tend to view people who react to "authority" this way as people who spend much of their time ramped up on the hunt for the next fight. They search for opportunities to show others that they are oppressed, to be pitied, that the world has never treated them fairly, that they have been damaged by circumstance. They are desperate to be admired (aka feared) by others, and resent anyone having the audacity to tell them anything they don't like to hear. Some people don't feel they are alive unless they live at the cliff's edge or their days are steeped in drama. They could also be well aware that they did something wrong (and I mean wrong under some law or regulation that society decided it wanted to impose). Then the competition is off and running....dare you to catch me, find the illegal, stop me, assault me. Then my self-perpetuating fantasy just gets reinforced even more.
But your own past experience obviously plays its part. I am a boring, easygoing, typically law-abiding person. Maybe another way to put it is that I pick my little flaunting of unnecessary regulations very very carefully. I don't resist everything just because it might be an inconvenience. Life goes on, and most other things are more important. A city decides to limit car speed on a particular road? So what? Go the effing speed limit and focus your energy on better things. Plus, I think about consequences to others if I decide to ignore authority. Knock my head on the ground and a thousand pardons for being a selfless, civil human.
My experience with police is understandably limited. I have been pulled over for something exactly once; an expired registration sticker. The officer was polite, I was polite. He was straightforward, I was straightforward. He was pretty pleasant actually especially once he saw that I was a bit embarrassed about the dumb sticker. There was no reason to suspect him of anything other than doing a job. He makes a living just like I do. A non-event. Somehow I doubt I'll ever see my face in print or on some newsfeed and I can live with that.
Last edited by Parnassia; 03-12-2018 at 03:06 PM..
Idealism might stop someone from cooperating with authorities, but nothing will be gained, other than maybe a little boost to his/her personal pride and ego. Chances are, the person will get notes jotted down that will work against him/her in the future, and get added to some dark and insidious list. Things that worked decades ago and hundreds of years ago no longer work. We've lost much, and few truly see the full impact of it.
As I understand the Sovereign Citizen belief system, people are convinced that laws under The Articles of Confederation apply to them. Makes no sense to me, but somehow they adhere to this belief.
There are YouTube videos of police confrontations with these deluded people. They tend to get themselves arrested.
In terms of dealings with police, I would turn to them in an emergency, and I respect their mission. But even though I have nothing to hide, I would refuse to allow an unwarranted search of my car.
When I have been pulled over, I have provided ID, and I am polite. No need to be smarta$$. I think officers do a hard job to a mostly indifferent populace. I give them a lot of credit for facing people and situations that I could never handle.
I agree: the Sovereign citizen people are on the fringe. Many of them use the belief system to avoid paying income tax. I met several of them when I worked in the legal field. Google Presentment or Honor/Dishonor if you want to know more.
Other than the Sovereign context, I think there are some helpful strategies for good people dealing with police.
I heard a podcast about this last year that was excellent. Very long but very good.
The podcaster is a personal finance expert (he is very, very good) and in this episode talks about a book he read (Arrest Proof Yourself by Carson & Denham)
and how getting a police record can hurt your and your family's finances.
Utter loons who tend to talk themselves into citations. When I get pulled over I hsve my window down, cabin light on (if it's dark), DL and registration in hand and read to hand to the officer when they walk over to me. My car is also off and my hand resting atop my steering wheel.
I'm totally honest and rarely get tickets doing all of this but, if I do, most often go to court, plead guilty, the officer speaks in my defence and I'm free to go.
If you are polite to police the worst case is you'll get your ticket quickly and be on your way.
If you come up with a lot of BS and disrespect you are triggering the police officer's experiences with all the jerks he's ever pulled over, hassles, struggles, maybe even shootings.
Get nasty and the first thing you'll find is yourself bent over the hood while the officer cuffs you and cleans your pockets then puts you in the back seat of his patrol car—sitting on the cuffs behind your back!
If you haven't done anything and it finally comes down to no reason to keep you you will have spent a very uncomfortable hour sitting in the back of a police car, an hour out of your life that could have been spent having fun or doing something productive.
If you are nice the officer might be so pleasantly surprised that if your offense is minor he may just verbally warn you (like to get your registration renewed) and cut you lose.
Go ahead and act out. It makes for interesting roadside drama. With you cast in the role playing the idiot.
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With you cast in the role playing the idiot.
